[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Ahh yes! Taxonomy and the vanity of coining new names or erasing old ones!
I am completely in agreement with the fact that we need to rewrite the Thamnophis family tree in accordance with the cladistic approach. The problem for me taking any current changes seriously is that there have been quite a few mitochondrial DNA studies done on the genus, and so many of them seem to contradict one another. A good friend of mine (who is a local wildlife biologist) mentioned that too few loci have been examined, and that the real reason we haven't solved the garter conundrum is because the genus as a whole has not been completely mapped. This is of course a grand undertaking, and I don't see any funding for such an endeavor any time soon.

I do not have a problem of reassigning terrestris back to the elegans elegans clade, for I have seen some pretty obvious "intergrades". The whole concept of sub-species is becoming rather controversial these days, and many taxonomists would prefer the term "race". Additionally, even species statuses are coming into question. I mean if a CA King and a Corn Snake can produce fertile female "Jungle Corns" (an inter-generic hybrid), what the heck is the definition of a species?!

I agree that terrestris would be closer to the Mountain Garter due to the fact that vagrans ranges further north and east.

There is also a local genetic study that alleges more recent common ancestry between ordinoides, elegans, and atratus. Some suspect hybridization between elegans elegans and atratus. I suspect hybridization between sirtalis infernalis and elegans terrestris in our area (crazy, heh? It's one of the reasons I have chosen to return to school, so I can "spit in the eye" of some of the arrogant PhD's I have met! LOL! Sorry....

But, hey! Everyone! Do not be discouraged by such news! To me it is still a Coast Garter - with different patterns, colors, and habitats.

The is a conservational danger to eliminating certain subspecies or races. If they all become one species, certain localities could come under fire by development, etc. Offenders might say, "There's plenty of them elegans in the mountains; these "Coastals" can make way for some condos near the beach! Tsk! Tsk! The horror!

Ponderously,

Steven