Anyone ever cross tetrataenia with blotched ssp. (infernalis, concinnus, parietalis)

[drache]

Originally Posted by Thamnophis

You can also say that when the habitats for tetrataenia are (almost) gone and there is no chance to restore them, why should you protect them in the wild.
I am not saying that is MY opinion, but it is something to discuss.

I know the area where they occur and I wouldn't say that their habitat is almost gone
I believe that protecting them in "the wild" has actually worked in that their numbers seem to be bouncing back (read something about that - not sure where)
as long as they're not being out-right persecuted, most snakes can do pretty well in relative proximity to human habitation, unless their dietary preference consists of something more delicate

[Thamnophis]

I thought that the diminishing of T. s. tetrataenia is not caused by the disappearing of the habitats (a Gartersnake is an opportunistic animal that easily adapts to its surroundings), but has more to do with the dissapearing of its main food source, the California red-legged frog (Rana aurora draytonii).

[drache]

yes, I had heard that as well
but apparently they are adapting to other food sources
you guys in Europe would know more about what that snake will eat
are you all breeding Cal red-legged frogs over there?

[Bay_area]

It is really strange with Fish & Wildlife or Fish & Game Departments on their view when it comes to reptiles, expecially snakes. They really have to be "pushed" when it comes to any type of protection for them or their habitat. It isn't until private organizations or the State University Biologist step in & make them do something. To be honest with you, one of the populations of SF Garters that my friends & I know about, F&G had no idea that they were @ this location til were told by one us.
Snakes do not get the same out cry from the public when they are harmed like other animals. If an otter, snowy plover, condor, etc was in the area, the whole area would be roped off & patrolled 24/7 by Rangers. I really do not blame the F&G officers, they are just to enforce the laws. F&G is underfunded & it is the ones in charge that set the budget. In Northern California F&G spends most of their time chasing poachers of abalone, deer, sturgen, whatever is big $$$(money) on the illegal market at the time.

[Thamnophis]

@ Bay area ... I agree with what you wrote above. Reptiels are often not seen as real animals

@ Drache ... no we are not breeding red leggs overhere.
But a snakesubspecies like tetrataenia has evolved together with those frogs. When the frogs dissapear the snakes are not immediately abled to change their feeding habits. Some of the might work this out and they are the beginning of a new population. But a lot of snakes will die. Think of the juvenile snakes that are born and instinctly go hunting for tadpoles of the redleggs. And there are no (or not enough) tadpoles. Than there is a problem!
In captivity it is a lot easier because we trick them in eating all kinds of other stuff.

[Bay_area]

The red legged frog is not the only thing they eat. Most garters are too small to eat red legged frogs anyhow. Their diet consist of alot more than just those frogs, such as nightcrawlers, treefrogs, various types of salamanders & like the California Redsided garters they are able to eat the newts without being affected by the skin that is poisonous to other animals.

California Red legged frogs. These are not that much smaller than a bullfrog. Find these crossing the road in the spring




newts are all over the place in the spring. I am sure they are a big part of their diet

[zooplan]

@ bay area
nice to read that there are more SFGarters left than it seemed a few years ago.
Still its my point of view, that they are over protected a indiviluals and not enough supported as speci.
The reimport of those group to the zoo of SF took only a half year, maybe I should start trying an export to get one in a few years.

[Thamnophis]

I agree that they will eat more than only red frogs.
But it seems to be an important part of their diet.
Makes sense. In Spring when they mate and the females get pregnant there are probably a lot of tadpoles. They change into small frogs and are for months not to big to get eaten.
And when the circumstances for the frogs are bad, this is also the case for newts etc.
I have read somewhere that where the water was made suitable for the frogs again the tetrataenia's returned also.

[drache]

that's the thing
it's not so much the loss of habitat, as the degradation
both in the SF bay area as well as around other urban areas
once the environment - especially the water - gets cleaned up and there are more stringent disposal laws, the animals often return and are able to proliferate again

[Bay_area]

Originally Posted by drache

that's the thing
it's not so much the loss of habitat, as the degradation
both in the SF bay area as well as around other urban areas
once the environment - especially the water - gets cleaned up and there are more stringent disposal laws, the animals often return and are able to proliferate again

I have to disagree, The loss of habitat is the major problem. I do not know how things work in your Country, but in California it is sad. Unless the land has been set aside by the park systems there is no guarantee that the land will not be developed. If a developer wants to build on property they get an enviromental report. If the report says there are endangered spiecies on the land, you would think that would be the end of it. NOT! The devopers have lobbiest that go to the Politicians & get them to "bend the rules" to build if they relocate animals or set aside a portion of the property for wilderness. In a nut shell, that is what happens. It is a little more complex than that, but it does come down to who has the most money to donate to political campaigns. It is hard to get anyone to listen to anyone that fights for animals because the bad image that certain enviromental wackos have painted for those that want to help. Sort of like how the abortion clinic bombers gave a bad picture of what a Christian is.

Please do not take this wrong, I am glad that I live in USA, it just isn't a perfect system