Question on genetics

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Currently, pheromones and even hemi-penal shapes and sizes in some species are leading theories as to how or why different species of garters stick to their own kind. Recent cladistic studies (i.e. genetic relationship b/n T. elegans, ordinoides, and atratus in Northern California) however are suggesting exceptions and perhaps even possible reasons for why Thamnophis' genetic origins and lineages are such a headache in the first place. Reintegration is even theorized. Imagine evolving separately, and then some ol' dormant genes reawakens to allow you to breed back to that ancient family down the lane... "Why 'dem mutants is gonna change me spots!" Nature is always changing. Garter foods (esp. amphibians) change. I am of the mindset that some garter species may indeed be "re-inventing" themselves.

Just mad about garters!

Steven

[GartersRock]

Hmmm... Very interesting!

[dekaybrown]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

So Easterns, Butlers and Melanistic Garters are naturally occurring in Michigan. Wouldn't these from time to time cross breed?

Lump

Melanism is a genetic anomaly, it can occur in any species, my Melanie is an eastern. Scott also sells Melanistic wanderings.

[dekaybrown]

Oh crap, sorry lump.

I have read on more than one government run Herp sites that overlapping does occur in the wild.

[KITKAT]

I worry about the effects of selling a hybrid as a pet, and having the new pet owner let it escape. What would the influx of new genes do to the garter gene pool where the pet escaped?

[dekaybrown]

I would almost have to think as a guess, most likely if it were to breed, in short order, a couple generations later, the gene would be diluted out.

Here is a simple scenario, I can see it happening. If I were to purchase a pair of red sided, and they bred, I released the babies into my yard, where they are not native, yet the climate will sustain them, they would survive and adapt.

At the conclusion of winter, by pheromone identification, the siblings will most likely find one another and breed.

If one confused red were to successfully impregnate a local eastern, (I'm not even sure it will work, Scott Felzer knows what ones will actually cross) and a litter were born, they would be very interesting mutts.

I have to assume In time, the "Introduced" gene would fade.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Unless the introduced genetics have a dominant effect in the cross. If that occurs, the influence may not fade out and instead pollute the entire line. How are we to know what will or will not happen? We can not assume that newly added DNA will disappear after time!

Steven

[Zephyr]

*Head-keyboard.* SO confusing! x.x
I'm still along the lines of thinking that California's garters are all messed up. XD

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Which species?

Even though I am a proponent of the belief that hybridization occurs in the wild, I currently think there are actually less such crosses than I had previously imagined. In my neck of the woods, I was quick to jump to conclusions as to some of the "mutts" I came across. There really is a lot of variability among these guys. Whether or not "contamination" has occurred in the last 30 years is unknown (but probably likely, especially where intergrades, not hybrids, might be concerned). The sirtalis clade has up to 11 ssp. throughout North America; with that many morphologically distinct locality types it is common for there to be even more subtle variations within a subspecies. Our local Coast Garter (T. e. terrestris) commonly shows up with background colors in red, or brown to olive to tan, w or w/o red flecking, rarely a "blue-belly", and all kinds of "unspectaculars" inbetween! T. ordinoides variation is insane (not just in CA!).

Cladistic studies are much more accurate than the older method of comparing morphological differences. Comparing the blended effects of red & black in the head colors of an intergrade between say infernalis and fitchi might be practically useless, if the blended colors have nothing to do with the intergrade itself. What if that intergrade zone contains a population that just happens to focus on a slightly different diet, and THAT is what is affecting the colors??? This refers to ontogenesis (what I like to call the "You are what you eat" study of evolution) What if the acquired immunity towards newt toxins in some garters and a subsequent diet of newts changes its colors or enhances its salivary toxins? What if? Ya can't rule anything out. Poison Dart Frogs become less toxic when they are not fed their native chemically noxious beetles!

Rambling again! Gosh darn it!