Another intergrade theory: T. elegans X T.s.? = T.s. concinnus?

[ConcinnusMan]

This is basically meant to be a change of subject, but a continuation of the thread conversation going on here: Cross breeding, need help..

I would really value stefan-A's input, among others regarding divergence/convergence.

I found a picture of a handsome garter found locally near Yakima, WA, in 2008, near a river. I believe the account to be true, and the specimen pictured to be true to location. It is supposed to be T. elegans, and for the most part, it does appear to be just that. But... it looks a heck of a lot like T. s. concinnus with those red/orange spots.

First, I'll show you the picture, then I'll suggest a theory about the specimen shown since...

it is far outside the range of T.s. concinnus: Yakima, WA 2008, ID'd as T. elegans

Picture:


Since this specimen was found near a river that, if followed downstream, meets up with the Columbia river, it's not to far of a stretch to imply that this is a color morph of T. elegans; could have, and likely would have ended up being involuntarily transported to extreme SW/WA - NW/OR on numerous possible times during a series of floods occurring between 13,000yrs ago to as late as the 1940's or 50's.

While concinnus are considered a small-range subspecies of T. sirtalis, could it be that T. s. concinnus is really just a recently isolated pocket of intergrades? Local herp experts have suggested that the variation among local concinnus (some have no side stripes, some do, some have lime green stripes, some are very yellow) is due first, to a divergence among sirtalis resulting in elegans, then later, an intergrade situation helped along by transporting floods, followed by isolation once again. After all, concinnus territory was once the last huge flood plain between Yakima, tri-cities, and the pacific, and the floods happened many times in thousands of years. I cannot dig more than 3 inches in my backyard in Vancouver, WA without finding smooth, round, "river rock". It was once part of the Columbia river, and Vancouver Lake (thick with concinnus) was isolated from the columbia, only a few thousand years ago. Before that isolation, ALL of SW WA and NW oregon was under water.

In other words, what is considered T. s. concinnus, could actually be a recently isolated population of intergrades between two past diverging subspecies, joined once again, isolated by area and time, to become what is now called T. s. concinnus.

What do you think?

[Stefan-A]

Definitely NOT T. elegans. Looks like a fairly typical T. sirtalis fitchi to me. The red cheeks are typical of that subspecies, although I have seen T. sirtalis pickeringi that look a bit similar. Yakima is within T. s. fitchi's range and that's what it looks like to me.

[ssssnakeluvr]

looks like a fitchi to me also....fairly normal looking one. quite possibly a wrong id.

[reptileparadise]

I agree with the two above...
First thought was fitchi

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I do agree with the above statements that that particular snake is NOT an elegans, look at the head it's got sirtalis written all over it. I don't even live out wheclunky head and facial features such as the oversized labials resulting in the hugest smile ever) look to them and that snake ain't got it! I would also venture that it's a fitchii and that it was falsely ID'ed. It also resembles my male pickeringii in the dainty little head it has! I have seen both baby fitchii and baby concinnus (ones with laterals) that if you put them together, they would almost be hard to tell apart if you didn't know your garters!

[ConcinnusMan]

Ooops. Totally screwed up the title of the thread. T.s. elegans is a turtle!

Remember that I never got into latin names very much. I still have to google them when we're talking, to remind me what snake we're talking about. But yeah, upon further investigation, I'd have to agree it's a T.s. fitchii.

I think when I asked that herp professor years ago about the lateral stripes on only perhaps 30% of some local concinnus, and the fact that the stripes can be neon green, or very yellow, he suggested intergrades, or gene contribution, from another sirtalis ssp. Perhaps fitchii was what he was getting at. Fitchii of this color are found just 2 counties upriver from me (I'm in Clark Co. concinnus hot spot)

I looked closer at some fitchii photos that looked so much like (lateral striped) concinnus, it's ridiculous. In all examples however, there's the tell tale "teardrop effect" (that's what I call it) on the upper labials of fitchii. Not all fitchii have this, but all fitchii that look like concinnus have it.

Fitchii:


Concinnus with lateral stripes, you've seen so I'll spare the pic.

On a side note, there are many questionable ID's posted on the web, some by so-called experts, that still don't get the ID's right, or leave me wondering. I've found pics that are obviously, to you guys, a fitchii, ID'd as a parietalis. I just don't see any teardrop effect on any parietalis pictured anywhere so that has to be a false ID.

But anyway, my original theory sort of still stands. It's quite possible that these two subspecies;(if there really is such a thing) fitchii and concinnus; both T sirtalis; are both connected by the same bodies of water, and they look a heck of lot alike, so where do we make the ssp. distinction? Where does one cease to be the same as the other?

[gregmonsta]

Read this paper - http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/brod...0ME%202002.pdf you'll find that the most prevalent western genotype is concinnus (even accounting for snakes showing the phenotype of infernalis, fitchi, parietalis, etc). Simply, we are dealing with visual classification at best. As such the visual groups are always going to bring up a little controversy but the regional diversity is accepted as a list of subspecies and we do treat them as such.
It's why I prefer to see definate phenotypes in my collection and why I wouldn't want intergrades/questionably patterned snakes (I think the bill for gene mapping might be a bit steep ).

[ConcinnusMan]

Thanks. Will read it. I would definitely love to see some more gene mapping done among subspecies of sirtalis, especially those that are very similar and not separated by long distances. I read somewhere that they have already done that to compare tetrataenia to infernalis. Amazingly, the concensus was that the similar coloring was a result of localized natural selection rather than genetic relation.

[gregmonsta]

Thanks. Will read it. I would definitely love to see some more gene mapping done among subspecies of sirtalis, especially those that are very similar and not separated by long distances. I read somewhere that they have already done that to compare tetrataenia to infernalis. Amazingly, the concensus was that the similar coloring was a result of localized natural selection rather than genetic relation.

That's part of that paper.

[ConcinnusMan]

oh wow. I haven't had time to read it... Yet. I must have ran into it before.