genetics

[PINJOHN]

hi i recently had an opportunity to purchase a female san francisco garter snake [tetrataenia] i passed on the opportunity on two counts the first was that i could not afford it, the second was the concern that i heard that they are not
as robust as they should be due to their limited genetic diversity her in Europe.
the above facts did not stop me drooling over the idea of owning some beautiful but healthy san frans.
my knowledge of genetics is woeful, so my idea such as it is, would be to breed the female san fran to a male melanistic eastern, my theory [and thats all it is] is that he would bring the required vigour to the young, but being recessive he would not pass on his genes; and thereby stop the young from being intergrades then i started thinking well if he does not pass on his genes perhaps he might not pass on the required vigour thats needed and perhaps they would still be classed as intergrades it was at this point i developed a thumping headache, this heavy thinking cant be good for your health, im off to get some aspirin your input would be appreciated but please use words with not to many syllables [ remember my headache ]

[Stefan-A]

my knowledge of genetics is woeful, so my idea such as it is, would be to breed the female san fran to a male melanistic eastern, my theory [and thats all it is] is that he would bring the required vigour to the young, but being recessive he would not pass on his genes; and thereby stop the young from being intergrades then i started thinking well if he does not pass on his genes perhaps he might not pass on the required vigour thats needed and perhaps they would still be classed as intergrades it was at this point i developed a thumping headache, this heavy thinking cant be good for your health, im off to get some aspirin your input would be appreciated but please use words with not to many syllables [ remember my headache ]

Half of the genetic material comes from each parent, no matter what.

I know I'm repeating myself here, but they wouldn't be intergrades. They'd be hybrids. An intergrade is not a mix of two subspecies belonging to the same species.

Naturally, I wouldn't like it if someone even tried to cross a T. sirtalis tetrataenia with a T. sirtalis sirtalis (melanistic or not).

[infernalis]

No disrespect mate, but that's not even close to a good idea.

I have heard it "through the grape vine" that "someone" is trying to use Thamnophis Infernalis to accomplish this goal.

At least that way you would be working with animals that are so close to each other that most likely it occurs naturally in the little bit of California habitat that is left.

[zooplan]

T.s.tetrataenia´s should not be bred to any other specy nor subspecy!
Yes, some breeders tried that in Europe, forced by the fact, that ´tetrataenia was told to be the same as ´infernalis for a while some years ago. Because the limited number of avaliable California red sided breeders were inbred too the only success of this experiments were some lost branches at the pedigree ! No serious breeder like to cross in hybrids, and all breeders, who tried it or purchased some of the offspring were marked!
If San Francisco Garter Snakes are not grown and bred clean, they´ll lose any opportunity to refresh the natural populations later.

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

[infernalis]

At least if they would allow T.s.tetrataenia in private US collections the species as a whole could carry on when that last tiny hunk of land is no longer able to sustain..

I have to concur with Udo, if nothing changes there will not be any T.s.tetrataenia left in the wild and the only remaining specimens will be the ones (in private collections) in Europe & other parts of the world.

[guidofatherof5]

At least if they would allow T.s.tetrataenia in private US collections the species as a whole could carry on when that last tiny hunk of land is no longer able to sustain..

I have to concur with Udo, if nothing changes there will not be any T.s.tetrataenia left in the wild and the only remaining specimens will be the ones (in private collections) in Europe & other parts of the world.

What's even more sad is the fact that the snakes on display in the U.S. zoos came from Europe(Amsterdam Zoo). The bloodline isn't any better for breeding over here.
I spoke to the person in charge of the captive population at the S.F. Zoo and he said that the Government was going to allow them to keep any injured snakes that were found.
Not the brightest news considering the injures usually come from lawn mowers.

[infernalis]

Someone once told me that there was money to be made (federal funding) by keeping them endangered.

Seems almost reasonable since under any other circumstances most people (present company excluded) would not give a rats behind about garter snakes....

Example, "animal planet" runs all kinds of shows to make us feel bad for whales, seals, dolphins, etc...

When was the last time they ran any specials that focus on tetrataenia??

[zooplan]

The captive population at the US. Zoos is down to 4 specimens !
They were purchased (with assistance of the Rotterdam Zoo) in 2005 from a Dutch private breeder, who quit breeding ´tetrataenia soon later.
The offer to use injured snakes for a breeding program brought nothing.
Since five years the zoos were not able to aquire one single San Francisco Garter Snake, no snake were bred and if they are not able to breed soon, there will be no disblayable T.s.tetrataenia in the USA anymore. It was very sophisticated to get the import permission in 2005!
I don´t think that there will come another occasion soon.

[guidofatherof5]

I think if these snakes were not snakes, had fur and cute little faces there would be more work done towards helping them.
It's bad enough they are snakes but Garter snakes! Nobody wants to help them.

[PINJOHN]

my intention with this post is to stimulate debate which is one of the purposes of the site i can assure you i had no intention of attempting any such thing , although i have kept garters for many years i have not got around to breeding my snakes for at least the last five years and when i did the purpose was to give the young away to anyone i could get interested in keeping garters, being on the site reading the story's and seeing the photos of broods raised by members has moved me to consider breeding at the very least my checkereds next year, any young which i dont give away will go to my local pet shop in exchange for dry goods, making money from my .hobby. interest. passion. has never been my scene and in saying this, its no criticism of any members who do sell their offspring which does after all allow the rest of us to get our hands species which other wise would be difficult to get. the purpose of this rather long winded discourse is to allay the fears of members who might have feared the worse
apology's to stefan for confusing my intergrades with my hybrids, and to keep the subject going, can it be argued that the fact that the melanistic father is unable to influence the offspring means that those babys that express san fran colours are in fact true san frans but with the ability to throw the occasional black snake, in other words the full san fran genes but carrying a separate group of genes in a piggyback manner