PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail - Page 3

Cazador · 05-02-2007, 06:53 PM

You know how "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."

I wouldn't trade my collection, but I sure admire a lot of the different snakes on this forum. Don't know where I'd put them all, but one can dream

.

There are probably just as many exceptions to the size of adult:size of offspring observation that James made, but I think we notice quirks like that more often because they're so remarkable. I lot of the research on these issues (fecundity rates) deals with the amount of energy reserves that the mother has before becoming gravid and of course their capacity to ovulate.

Also ecologists talk about whether a species is an "r-select species" or a "k-select species." The r-select species maximize their fecundity "rate" but provide minimal parental care while k-select species produce fewer offspring but invest more parental care into them. As a result fewer k-select species die as neonates. The r-select species are normally good at colonizing new areas, but they suffer high mortality rates among the young.

Rick

GarterGuy · 05-02-2007, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cazador

I'm curious how quickly they turn blue. Roy had bought some very small Pugets last year that were already very blue. Weren't they about 4-5" long Roy?

Yeh they were only about 5in. long. I must say too that Marian's blues really look a lot different then mine. I think mine were definitely T.ordiniodes, but maybe it's just me, but these guys really look like baby T.sirtalis.
Roy

GarterGuy · 05-02-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikm

Roy, Your Puget babies were blue from the start and small ?? How many times had they fed before you got them or how old were they ??? Do you recall ??? Any info is most appreciated

.

James, that is very interesting ... I would expect smaller litters but the size (large) I find curious ???

Yeh, mine were blue from the get go (check out my entry in this month's contest). I have no idea how often they had been fed before I got them and as far as age, I was told they were several months old. Don't know if I believe that though....due to the size of them and the source of the info. I'm really thinking that you've got actual Pugets there (T.s.pickeringi), cause they don't look like my T.ordiniodes babies at all.

mikm · 05-03-2007, 01:10 PM

Hey Roy ... The blue baby you entered in the pic contest sure looks sweet, so sorry for your loss

... So that baby was suppoesed to be several months old ??? Approx how long was he ??? I have to say the little guy in that pic does not look like any of the babies I have.

marian

Cazador · 05-03-2007, 03:56 PM

Let's see how things develop, Marian, but if some don't gain the blue color, it would confirm that they mated with a "wild-type" male, which pretty much guarantees they were wild-caught adults (as if there were still any doubt).

Rick

Ameivaboy · 05-03-2007, 04:02 PM

are you implying they arent captive bred?? how could you !! lol jk

GarterGuy · 05-03-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikm

Hey Roy ... The blue baby you entered in the pic contest sure looks sweet, so sorry for your loss

... So that baby was suppoesed to be several months old ??? Approx how long was he ??? I have to say the little guy in that pic does not look like any of the babies I have.

marian

He was only about 4-5in. long. He actually did very well for the first week, even shed, but then went downhill VERY quickly...the other one soon followed. Yeh, it was a real shame.....he was going to be a gorgeous snake.
Roy

mikm · 05-04-2007, 08:31 AM

My personal opinion, based upon my observations is that the 0.2 I treated earlier this year (which are doing well, btw) are ordiniodes . The male acquired with that group looks very different then those two girls and always has ... way before I was aware of the 2 different sub-species. He is a bright lime green, with a narrow snout which was more noticeable when he was housed with the ordiniodes girls, he is not blue at all. Back when I got them I asked "bob" about it and his reply was a lot of them were like (green) that but all babies turned blue ... for what that's worth. 'Someone' else (not 'bob', but a very reliable source) told me the green ones were rare, so I don't really know ?? I know I have been promising a photo shoot so I will just leave that alone for now as I have no excuse, the weather has been great !! That said ...

Rick, thanks for the info on the "r-select, k-select species" ... that's interesting to me. Not sure I agree with your color (or lack thereof) statement in regards to being bred to a wild type male. All of the adult WC animals of both sub species that I have seen (pics or in person) have very nice color. Green, blue, or blue/green, they all certainly catch your eye ... There is no mistaking it. Perhaps it has been my somewhat limited view of these animals but none that I have seen lacked color. Very much looking forward to seeing more litters 'on the ground'.

You all are always so helpful & thought provoking, THANK YOU !!

best wishes,
marian

mikm · 05-04-2007, 09:18 AM

STUBBS _ * update * This is 'my girl'

... She claimed the narrow log as her 'birthing log' and stayed inside there until she had dropped all of them. I could not actually see them being born as that end of her was pointed away from me, however I watched her contractions. When she ventured out of that log I knew she was done and removed the FOUR fat, babies. She rested that afternoon ... Early that same evening she soaked in her water dish, tightly wound, for about an hour then calmly slithered around peeling off her old skin in one complete shed. As soon as she completed that task, she stared at me, seemingly pressing her face up against the glass at the front of her tank looking at me as if to say 'Okay, I've done my part, so now where's dinner ??'

... She's got that, 'been there, done that' calm attitude ... How cool is that, lol ??
Not wanting to take anything away from Proud MaMa,she feasted on four large f/t pinks & good size minnow the day after her delivery as well. She looks great though she's still understandabley, a little thin. Based upon her actions I am assuming this was her first litter. She moved around quite a bit between deliveries and appeared 'jumpy'. She is quite the 'looker' so it will be nice to see how her youngun's progress color wise ...

what a great start to spring

...
marian

05-02-2007, 06:53 PM	#21 (permalink)
Cazador Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,608 Country:	Re: PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail You know how "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." I wouldn't trade my collection, but I sure admire a lot of the different snakes on this forum. Don't know where I'd put them all, but one can dream . There are probably just as many exceptions to the size of adult:size of offspring observation that James made, but I think we notice quirks like that more often because they're so remarkable. I lot of the research on these issues (fecundity rates) deals with the amount of energy reserves that the mother has before becoming gravid and of course their capacity to ovulate. Also ecologists talk about whether a species is an "r-select species" or a "k-select species." The r-select species maximize their fecundity "rate" but provide minimal parental care while k-select species produce fewer offspring but invest more parental care into them. As a result fewer k-select species die as neonates. The r-select species are normally good at colonizing new areas, but they suffer high mortality rates among the young. Rick

05-03-2007, 01:10 PM	#24 (permalink)
mikm Subadult snake Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 355 Country:	Re: PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail Hey Roy ... The blue baby you entered in the pic contest sure looks sweet, so sorry for your loss ... So that baby was suppoesed to be several months old ??? Approx how long was he ??? I have to say the little guy in that pic does not look like any of the babies I have. marian

05-03-2007, 03:56 PM	#25 (permalink)
Cazador Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,608 Country:	Re: PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail Let's see how things develop, Marian, but if some don't gain the blue color, it would confirm that they mated with a "wild-type" male, which pretty much guarantees they were wild-caught adults (as if there were still any doubt). Rick

05-03-2007, 04:02 PM	#26 (permalink)
Ameivaboy "Preparing For Second shed" Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 219 Country:	Re: PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail are you implying they arent captive bred?? how could you !! lol jk __________________ What's Furred,Feathered or doesnt have a backbone???......... A feeder http://tegutalk.com

05-04-2007, 08:31 AM	#28 (permalink)
mikm Subadult snake Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 355 Country:	Re: PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail My personal opinion, based upon my observations is that the 0.2 I treated earlier this year (which are doing well, btw) are ordiniodes . The male acquired with that group looks very different then those two girls and always has ... way before I was aware of the 2 different sub-species. He is a bright lime green, with a narrow snout which was more noticeable when he was housed with the ordiniodes girls, he is not blue at all. Back when I got them I asked "bob" about it and his reply was a lot of them were like (green) that but all babies turned blue ... for what that's worth. 'Someone' else (not 'bob', but a very reliable source) told me the green ones were rare, so I don't really know ?? I know I have been promising a photo shoot so I will just leave that alone for now as I have no excuse, the weather has been great !! That said ... Rick, thanks for the info on the "r-select, k-select species" ... that's interesting to me. Not sure I agree with your color (or lack thereof) statement in regards to being bred to a wild type male. All of the adult WC animals of both sub species that I have seen (pics or in person) have very nice color. Green, blue, or blue/green, they all certainly catch your eye ... There is no mistaking it. Perhaps it has been my somewhat limited view of these animals but none that I have seen lacked color. Very much looking forward to seeing more litters 'on the ground'. You all are always so helpful & thought provoking, THANK YOU !! best wishes, marian

05-04-2007, 09:18 AM	#29 (permalink)
mikm Subadult snake Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 355 Country:	Re: PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail STUBBS _ * update * This is 'my girl' ... She claimed the narrow log as her 'birthing log' and stayed inside there until she had dropped all of them. I could not actually see them being born as that end of her was pointed away from me, however I watched her contractions. When she ventured out of that log I knew she was done and removed the FOUR fat, babies. She rested that afternoon ... Early that same evening she soaked in her water dish, tightly wound, for about an hour then calmly slithered around peeling off her old skin in one complete shed. As soon as she completed that task, she stared at me, seemingly pressing her face up against the glass at the front of her tank looking at me as if to say 'Okay, I've done my part, so now where's dinner ??' ... She's got that, 'been there, done that' calm attitude ... How cool is that, lol ?? Not wanting to take anything away from Proud MaMa,she feasted on four large f/t pinks & good size minnow the day after her delivery as well. She looks great though she's still understandabley, a little thin. Based upon her actions I am assuming this was her first litter. She moved around quite a bit between deliveries and appeared 'jumpy'. She is quite the 'looker' so it will be nice to see how her youngun's progress color wise ... what a great start to spring ... marian

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