unusual????

[bigdaddydan74]

I just got my valley garter yesterday_ today i got 10 small feeder fish from petco and it has allready ate 8 of them in about 1hour. should i let it eat that much at once or should i give it a certain amount at scheduled times?

[Cazador]

Sorry to say this bigdaddy, but it depends on how large the "small feeder fish" are and how large your valley garter is. You might offer a 24" snake two to four 2" feeder fish at a time. Then feed it every other day or every third day. Of course, this isn't a rule... just a guideline. If you can't see a visible lump in the stomach, then go ahead and feed more. Big lumps are perfectly fine. Just feed them less often if they have a big lump. Wait a day or two to feed them again after the lump disappears if you're feeding fish.

I hope this helps, but if we're talking about small 1/2" feeder guppies that means one thing, and if we're talking about small 2" rosie reds, it means something else. Best,
Rick

[bigdaddydan74]

thank you!! the snake is about 20 to 22 inches long and the feeders are
1 inch gold fish.... ??????

[Cazador]

This is one of those things that you're going to see over, and over, and over again. The pet store folks tell clients to feed their garters goldfish. Several months later, their snakes stop eating, become lethargic, won't reproduce, suffer convulsions, and die. I don't think it's a conspiracy, but you end up in the market for another snake because you became really attached to your last one. Eventually you hear about thiamin deficiencies.

You'll hear this next part a lot, too... it's because goldfish contain an enzyme called thiaminase, which breaks down a water soluble vitamin called thiamin (AKA Vitamin B1). Thiamin is necessary for all living organisms, including humans, to make proteins, support neural function, and convert food into energy. The more thiaminase an organism has in their system, the less thiamin that is available. Eventually, the snake starts to suffer ill effects. The bottom line: if you're going to feed fish, switch to another type, like trout, salmon, pike, bass, crapie, or bluegill. Just freeze them for a few days and cut suitable-sized strips for your snake to eat. They're easy to cut into small strips when they're frozen, but be sure to thaw them thoroughly before feeding them to the snake. Leave the bones in the strips. DOUBLE CHECK the thicker areas of the fish because the outside may seem warm (if you use warm water to thaw them), while the inside remains frozen.

I guarantee you'll see the goldfish issue come up again, probably before the end of November. It's super common.

P.S. Your snake will be fine, but chronic exposure causes problems.

[bigdaddydan74]

what if those fish are not readily available here ?
where do iget them?
what do i do if i can't?

[Cazador]

Hi Dan,
You can probably buy trout or salmon in the meat department of any super market in Spokane. Just freeze them as soon as possible. If you want to get away from feeding fish, you could feed that little fitchi worms, pinkies, fuzzies, or even raw meat, but it might need to be scented first. I'm not a fan of feeding amphibians but many people do. Here's a link that explains why I don't. new snake owner says hello

I recently read a post on this forum where someone was feeding canned cat food to their garter. Now that's a cool idea. I primarily feed mine raw caribou meat, so you see, they'll eat just about anything with a little conditioning.

By the way, I edited my last comment, so you may want to re-read it.

[Thamnophis]

There are more alternatives. Try to get the snake on dead fish and everytime you feed the snake put some multvitamin/calcium for reptiles on the fish. Has worked for me for many years.
Also baby-mice and pieces of heart (chicken) can be fed.

[Cazador]

In the USA, the National Academy of Sciences published a study years ago about nutritional requirements for mink. The National Academy of Sciences includes some of the best scientists in the country, so their word is the best available. There's a table in this publication that lists many fish species that have been tested for the presence or absence of thiaminase. I'll put a link to the table at the bottom of this post.

If you also look on page 15 of the document, you'll find a general discussion about thiaminase. Freezing does not denature/destroy the enzyme. Thoroughly cooking does, but most people don't cook the fish they feed to their snakes. In this study, they recommend only feeding fish containing thiaminase to the mink every other day (if at all) to reduce its concentration. Since mink and garter snakes have such different passage rates, it's best just to avoid feeding your snakes fish that contain thiaminase.

As an analogy, many people smoke for years without noticing the harmful effects, but that doesn't mean it's not hurting you.

http://newton.nap.edu/books/030903325X/html/64.html

[abcat1993]

What do the letters mean under Habitat and portion tested?

[Cazador]

Notice that the table is two pages long. The fish with thiaminase take up the top 2/3 of the first page, and the fish without thiaminase cover the rest of the table. The legend is at the bottom of the second page.

W = Whole fish
V = Viscera (guts)
M = Muscle tissue

F = freshwater
S = saltwater