poll

[Josh]

all species that is.

[GarterGuy]

It's the same snake! One had red bars and the other has red stripes. I've even heard that some think that tertrataenia isn't even a valid subspecies and should be included with infernalis. Having said that, how can I possibley pick which one I like best??????? Yeh, it's late....ok I'll vote....but you won't know which one I voted for!

Roy

[Josh]

See i dont agree with that at all. If there the same, then eastern and maritime are the same.
its a diffent sub species.
They are gonna resemble each other because they live in the same general area.

[GarterGuy]

There are also some that think that palidullus is not a valid subspecies either and should be included with sirtalis.

[Josh]

But listen to what im tryin to say.
Its like walking up to two guys named bob and steve and sayin steve you look like bob so your a bob now.

[GarterGuy]

Actually it's a lot more complicated then that. Most subspecies are very "fuzzy" by definition, because unless the two groups are geographicly isolated there can be a lot of integration between the two. Especially when you're dealing with an animal as diverse in colour and pattern as the sirtalis species, it's very hard to say exactly when you've got an actual subspecies or just an isolated population that shows a colour or pattern varient. There's no question that tetrataenia is seperate from say sirtalis, but when you look at tetrataenia and infernalis the similarities are rather striking. I've even seen examples of tetrataenia where down the body the red stripes become broken into bars....pretty much exactly like infernalis. So then the question is......is infernalis just a barred colour varient of tetrataenia or is tetrataenia a striped variant of infernalis????...or are they actually different enough to have valid subspecies status? Due to human involvement, the two "subspecies" are now geographically isolated from each other, so maybe then a valid case for subspecies status could be made. Also are the two animals different genetically? How about diet and habitat preferences? There's a lot more to consider here then just how they look.....and for that matter, how they look in captivity. Even in each group there's some that are more blue and others that are more red. If you've worked in the scientific field long enough you come to realize nothing is easy or cut and dry....LOL. There's always some room for interpretation and argument. Heck someday they may do genetic research on the sirtalis species and find that it's actually made up of several species and then every thing will go completely haywire!

Roy

[adamanteus]

Originally Posted by GarterGuy

Heck someday they may do genetic research on the sirtalis species and find that it's actually made up of several species and then every thing will go completely haywire! Roy

I think that will happen someday soon.

Of course Rossman et al didn't recognise tetrataenia as being distinct from infernalis in their 1996 treatise, some other worker (forgotten his name) reinstated the sub-specific status more recently. There will always be dispute in such closely allied forms.

[zooplan]

both are beatyful, but when I´ve seen a San Franzisco fiirst time alive I thought it was painted!!

[Tori]

I have to say the S.F garter, probably because I know I will never own one. "Sigh"

[Stefan-A]

Originally Posted by adamanteus

I'm not so sure, Stefan. tetrataenia wouldn't get my vote.

Yeah, I know you'd vote for radix, but then again, you only get one vote.