found this on kingsnake

[rancor_]

Originally Posted by vwsrcool

if mice are considered a complete diet for garters, as long as they are getting mice why not give them a variety as extra stimulation? i know if i lived in a glass cage my entire life i wouldnt want to eat the same thing every day.

when i had a black rat snake years ago mice was his main diet, it also go baby chickens, baby quail and toads.

my point is i have always tried to make my pets lives better ( or at least i think so ) by feeding them variety, and changing the items in there cages every few weeks.

am i wrong for thinking that way?

To me, its not really a black and white issue of right and wrong. Look at it from the snakes actual prospective, (not a human thinking like a snake). If your snake is CB which its really a shame that so many people seem to have acquired their garters in less than ideal ways, it knows no life in the wild. A snake isnt like a mammal, so scratch the mammalian thought process. It doesnt care that it lives in a box, it doesnt care that its fed one type of food, it just doesnt care at all....its a snake. they operate only on instinct with very little altered behavior. In nature, animals specialize on one food item all the time... a balanced meal is a balanced meal...toads, frogs and other captured prey only increase introduction to parasites and other dangers that, while encountered in the woods, are much different inside a glass box.
Garters and other active colubrids are unique in the fact that they dont spend all their active hours in a hole, like pythons for instance. Room to roam and stuff to explore is what provides stimulation, not their lunch.

[drache]

Originally Posted by rancor_

Room to roam and stuff to explore is what provides stimulation, not their lunch.

I'd like to add to that, that garters even like to be somewhere where they can see what's going on outside their box
I think variety in food is nice, but food being safe is more important
truly - we don't know how snakes experience flavour and texture of food

[Lori P]

You know, these are good points too. Truly, I do not have a clear understanding of what is pleasurable to a snake... I have to remind myself that they are not dogs, they aren't in this for the human companionship, belly rubs and shared pork chops. I do understand that they don't percieve us with any affection.
But... still.... they have to be able to get enjoyment out of sunning, climbing interesting branches, rubbing on different textures, even cuddling with each other... don't they? So life in a barren box has got to get boring... don't you think?? I saw a boa this weekend in the saddest set up... nothing but a water tub. No hide, nothing at all to do, literally a tank with newspapers and a water tub. And he'd been kept like that for 7 years!!!! He doesn't get taken out-- he doesn't get any stimulation. But I guess the question is, does he know he's deprived? I found the whole thing depressing and I think his owner should be ashamed... but maybe I project too much....

[anji1971]

Maybe you're projecting and maybe not, Lori, but sometimes, even if the animal doesn't really know the difference, or have any real feelings, it makes US feel better to give them every possible comfort we can. I don't really think any caring person CAN take the human emotional element out of the equation!

And, yes, they certainly seem to derive pleasure (or at least interest) from the different stimuli we provide!

[anji1971]

Originally Posted by vwsrcool

my point is i have always tried to make my pets lives better ( or at least i think so ) by feeding them variety, and changing the items in there cages every few weeks.
am i wrong for thinking that way?

No, Ben, I don't think you're wrong for having that opinion, but there are quite a lot of things you can feed your snake that are safe and healthy. Mine never ate mice, and I don't plan on trying them again, but I have been trying to introduce more than one food -- just for variety, like you!! Now that you know about the goldfish issue, it seems like you are more than willing to change that, so I think you are definitely on the right track!!

[sschind]

Originally Posted by rancor_

To me, its not really a black and white issue of right and wrong. Look at it from the snakes actual prospective, (not a human thinking like a snake). If your snake is CB which its really a shame that so many people seem to have acquired their garters in less than ideal ways, it knows no life in the wild. A snake isnt like a mammal, so scratch the mammalian thought process. It doesnt care that it lives in a box, it doesnt care that its fed one type of food, it just doesnt care at all....its a snake. they operate only on instinct with very little altered behavior. In nature, animals specialize on one food item all the time... a balanced meal is a balanced meal...toads, frogs and other captured prey only increase introduction to parasites and other dangers that, while encountered in the woods, are much different inside a glass box.
Garters and other active colubrids are unique in the fact that they dont spend all their active hours in a hole, like pythons for instance. Room to roam and stuff to explore is what provides stimulation, not their lunch.

You make some good points, but I take issue with your insinuation (what with the italics and all) that anyone who keeps WC animals is doing a bad thing. In most of the cases in this forum we are talking about people who have captured their own snakes or maybe two or even three. We are not talking about people who have gone out and collected hundreds or even thousands or have bought from people who have contributed in such wholesale collection, even though this thread is a direct result of that. ( I think the snakes originally discussed were WC, and people have purchased other WC snakes,) In areas where wild populations are healthy and steady I see absolutely nothing wrong with people catching and keep wild animals as long as they can provide for them. Some animals simply are not available as CBB specimens. They either won't breed or no one tries to breed them because there is no money in it. No offense but I get a little tired of seeing responses like "let the snake go, if your kid wants a snake buy him a CBB corn snake" I know if any of my kids (if I had kids) came home with a garter snake or an American toad and said they wanted to keep it I would have absolutely no problem letting him or her do so even though I have access to any CBB snake or frog they may want. Don't get me wrong. I encourage CBB over WC any chance I get but I am not about to tell some mother who brings their 5 year old in with a garter snake he just caught under their back porch that he is doing a bad thing by wanting to keep it and that he should let it go and buy a CBB snake from me. If I feel that he, and the parents of course, can take care of the snake in question, (if it were a red belly or a brown snake that would be a different story because they are typically harder to take care of,) I will tell them what they need to do to keep it. If I feel they can't take care of it why on earth would I try to sell them a CBB one of mine. I talk so many people out of keeping baby turtles simply by telling them how much a proper setup would cost but its not the same for many other animals.

I have a tank with blue spotted salamanders and small American toads in it right now and It is one of my favorite tanks even though I haven't seen the sallys in about a month. My favorite frogs of all are Gray tree frogs and when I get some space freed up I will have a tank of them as well.

I certainly don't mean to single you out or belittle your opinion rancor, and I suspect that you may have some of the same feelings. I's just that some people go way over the top on subjects like WC and mixing (please, you don't want to get me started on that subject) that they have no room for reason or compromise.

[LushLulu85]

i am going to throw in my opinion in here...
i do not have any problem in someone catching a snake and bringing it home to keep but i do not agree in taking a huge number of snakes and breeding to sell. too many are being taken from the wild and eventually it will decrese in numbers like the san fran. i understand there is many factore contributing to the decline in numbers but it isn't fair to take so many and help along the chance of extinction.

[rancor_]

Originally Posted by sschind

You make some good points, but I take issue with your insinuation (what with the italics and all) that anyone who keeps WC animals is doing a bad thing. In most of the cases in this forum we are talking about people who have captured their own snakes or maybe two or even three. We are not talking about people who have gone out and collected hundreds or even thousands or have bought from people who have contributed in such wholesale collection, even though this thread is a direct result of that. ( I think the snakes originally discussed were WC, and people have purchased other WC snakes,) In areas where wild populations are healthy and steady I see absolutely nothing wrong with people catching and keep wild animals as long as they can provide for them. Some animals simply are not available as CBB specimens. They either won't breed or no one tries to breed them because there is no money in it. No offense but I get a little tired of seeing responses like "let the snake go, if your kid wants a snake buy him a CBB corn snake" I know if any of my kids (if I had kids) came home with a garter snake or an American toad and said they wanted to keep it I would have absolutely no problem letting him or her do so even though I have access to any CBB snake or frog they may want. Don't get me wrong. I encourage CBB over WC any chance I get but I am not about to tell some mother who brings their 5 year old in with a garter snake he just caught under their back porch that he is doing a bad thing by wanting to keep it and that he should let it go and buy a CBB snake from me. If I feel that he, and the parents of course, can take care of the snake in question, (if it were a red belly or a brown snake that would be a different story because they are typically harder to take care of,) I will tell them what they need to do to keep it. If I feel they can't take care of it why on earth would I try to sell them a CBB one of mine. I talk so many people out of keeping baby turtles simply by telling them how much a proper setup would cost but its not the same for many other animals.

I have a tank with blue spotted salamanders and small American toads in it right now and It is one of my favorite tanks even though I haven't seen the sallys in about a month. My favorite frogs of all are Gray tree frogs and when I get some space freed up I will have a tank of them as well.

I certainly don't mean to single you out or belittle your opinion rancor, and I suspect that you may have some of the same feelings. I's just that some people go way over the top on subjects like WC and mixing (please, you don't want to get me started on that subject) that they have no room for reason or compromise.

I didnt insinuate anything. what I stated was quite clear. Setting out to collect a snake, finding one in a backyard, I liked the way it looks can I keep it in a tank with my RES and my Corn...ect... its all a matter of opinion. mine is simple. A kid beginning a life long love of reptiles is different from an adult with 20$. Never said keeping wild caught was bad, if it was, my tanks would be empty waiting on the test tube snakes...(due Nov. 2042). If an adult that truly is in it for the animals, money doesnt matter. Catching a snake that you intend to propagate in captivity is one thing, but taking it from the wild to stick it in a tank is another. IMHO, if one collects a snake from the wild because they cant obtain it in the trade, it should be to make it available for someone else to get CB(ie. to breed it). If that means you sell it to them for 5 bucks, a case of beer (how i paid for my pair), or give it to them for... free!! A word virtually unheard of in this "industrious trade" we have made for ourselves.
Lemme Bold some text before I go on...
No offense but I get a little tired of seeing responses like "let the snake go, if your kid wants a snake buy him a CBB corn snake" I know if any of my kids (if I had kids) came home with a garter snake or an American toad and said they wanted to keep it I would have absolutely no problem letting him or her do so even though I have access to any CBB snake or frog they may want.
This is not what I would be referring to. Its very common for someone to get into herps by catching a frog, or toad, or snake... and trying to keep it alive in their house. but once you become conscious of what you are doing, it shouldnt matter that you have to wait 6 months, search with effort, or contact people to get the snake, or animal you have such a passion for that you might have to pay a buck or two to obtain a CB. There really isnt that many species out there that havent been bred in captivity, and its unfortunate that you (singling YOU out) would take the "cause its easier" stance. Id never assume that a 10 year old would share my views, or that you would - - or anyone else would- - - for that matter, but I havent seen many 10 year olds on this forum, mostly 13+. If you value a "garter community" than I would hope you wouldnt pick apart posts with valuable info, though a different outlook than your own, that are for the greater good of that community. Conservation is Key to not having all species end up where San frans has ended up. Common is only common until theyre threatened.
I look forward to any responses on this post, and I dont want to offend, just expand a discussion that I dont think some people think about.
Enlightenment can only happen with a flame.

P.S I like my italics. They work to EMPHASIZE my text as alot of feeling is lost in the written post.

[RZL36]

As long as you are not picking up threatened or endangered, there is nothing wrong with it. My first snake was a garter snake that I found in a park. I kept it for two days and let it go.

I would love to find a pair of garters native to my area and breed them out in captivity. Then put 10 times as many back. I'm not seeing a downside.

[rancor_]

Originally Posted by RZL36

As long as you are not picking up threatened or endangered, there is nothing wrong with it. My first snake was a garter snake that I found in a park. I kept it for two days and let it go.

I would love to find a pair of garters native to my area and breed them out in captivity. Then put 10 times as many back. I'm not seeing a downside.

thats becuase your only looking short term. there are MANY issues regarding what you are proposing, and very few, if any benifits.