Pics of my Puget Sound blues

[GarterGuy]

Well I had a nice long reply where I quoted the text I got the info. from and ect., but was booted off and lost all of it. So here it is, short and sweet.....the text was from Audubon Soceity Guide to North American Repitles and Amphibians. I also found reference to the scale counts (17 for ordinoides and 19 for sirtalis) in a Golden Guide A Guide to Field Identification: Reptiles of North America. So it looks like we got blue phase Northwestern gartes and not blue phase Puget Sound garters. Thanks ssssnakeluvr for bringing this up....would have probably never known. Doesn't much matter to me, still love them and am excited about actually working with another species of garter, besides all the T.sirtalis ssp. Also gives me some incentive to try out the really nice red T.ordinoides that I've seen for sale a the local reptile show.

[Cazador]

Hey Roy,
Thanks for the info, above. Too bad about the original post. I would have liked to seen it. I also think it's pretty cool about them being T. ordinoides. I saw some seemingly identical blue snakes for sale by "Glades Herps" a while back on kingsnake, and they were being called "mountain garters." They were being sold for $95, but I don't remember if that was per snake or per pair.
Rick

[KITKAT]

Well, I have adults from Bob... but I have no idea how to do a scale count. This weekend, or early next week, I will try to get some really clear photos, and post them. Then maybe some of you younger guys (with eyes that work) can help me count them.

[Thamnophis]

The easiest way to do a scalecount is to do so on a shedding.
Put on your reading-glasses

[Cazador]

Once again ssssnakeluvr, my hat's off to you. You're tha man!

Kitkat, Roy,
It looks like we bought T. ordinoides . When I think I know something, it takes a good bit of evidence to persuade me otherwise, and I've been looking at a lot of indistinct (and probably some mis-labeled) pictures of T. ordinoides and T.s. pickeringii over the last few days. Today, I e-mailed Gary Nafis, and he wrote back with a key to certain snakes of the West & Northwest. It didn't include T.s. pickeringii, but it had other T. sirtalis subspecies. My blue snakes have 7-8 upper labials; 8 lower labials; their internasals are equal to or shorter than their prefrontals; and they have 17 scale rows... all characteristics of T. ordinoides. He has an awesome snake ID key with photos to help interpret the descriptions. Have a look (Key to California Gartersnakes).
Rick

[GarterGuy]

Originally Posted by Cazador

Once again ssssnakeluvr, my hat's off to you. You're tha man!

Kitkat, Roy,
It looks like we bought T. ordinoides . When I think I know something, it takes a good bit of evidence to persuade me otherwise, and I've been looking at a lot of indistinct (and probably some mis-labeled) pictures of T. ordinoides and T.s. pickeringii over the last few days. Today, I e-mailed Gary Nafis, and he wrote back with a key to certain snakes of the West & Northwest. It didn't include T.s. pickeringii, but it had other T. sirtalis subspecies. My blue snakes have 7-8 upper labials; 8 lower labials; their internasals are equal to or shorter than their prefrontals; and they have 17 scale rows... all characteristics of T. ordinoides. He has an awesome snake ID key with photos to help interpret the descriptions. Have a look (Key to California Gartersnakes).
Rick

Very cool site.....see this is what we need for all of them. Of course it'd also probably help to have a little bit on snake anatomy. I'm sure there are those who have no idea what internasals are or that blush when you ask them about labials . I'm seriously thinking about getting something like this in gear after the holidays. It's the slow time of year at the lab, so I'll have plenty of time for research. I'll see my publisher buddy this weekend at the herp club meeting, so I'll see what he has to say.

[Cazador]

Hey Roy,
One of the cool things about his website is that if you click on any of the blue letters, it actually shows numbered labials, how to count scales, etc.
Rick

[GarterGuy]

Originally Posted by Cazador

Hey Roy,
One of the cool things about his website is that if you click on any of the blue letters, it actually shows numbered labials, how to count scales, etc.
Rick

Very cool.....didn't notice that the first time I checked it out!

[KITKAT]

Actually, if these are T ordinoides, I will be pleased. I was a bit worried about the local wildlife cop making me license the pickeringii. You see, living in Ohio is a bit frustrating... we are required, for example, to license and pit tag T sirtalis "florida blue" because T sirtalis are native to Ohio. I have never broached the subject of subspecies with the nice officer, but I fear that they would include them.

As it is, I may be the only thamnophis member (unless there is someone else from Ohio) who may NOT OWN any T radix. I think it is a real crock, but they are illegal to own in Ohio, as they are listed as "endangered" by way of the fact that their range extends VERY SLIGHTLY over the Indiana border in one place, and therefore they are very rare here. (It is an agenda driven logic for sure that places them on the endangered list here... SIGH!)

[GarterGuy]

Originally Posted by KITKAT

Actually, if these are T ordinoides, I will be pleased. I was a bit worried about the local wildlife cop making me license the pickeringii. You see, living in Ohio is a bit frustrating... we are required, for example, to license and pit tag T sirtalis "florida blue" because T sirtalis are native to Ohio. I have never broached the subject of subspecies with the nice officer, but I fear that they would include them.

As it is, I may be the only thamnophis member (unless there is someone else from Ohio) who may NOT OWN any T radix. I think it is a real crock, but they are illegal to own in Ohio, as they are listed as "endangered" by way of the fact that their range extends VERY SLIGHTLY over the Indiana border in one place, and therefore they are very rare here. (It is an agenda driven logic for sure that places them on the endangered list here... SIGH!)

Sorry to hear about your governmental problems in Ohio. We've actually just made some changes to the reptile laws here in PA, to help protect hobbyist, so that they don't run into the same sort of problems that you've been having. I'm a memeber of a Herp Society and we were able to get lots of petitions signed and get the local establishment to recognize reptile keepers as a real part of the people affected by the laws.