San Francisco's

[jewel-dragons]

when it was possible,i will change 20 san francisco's just for one from the usa.... just for the new bloodline....
but i think that's impossible....

i was thinking to cross the tetrataenia with the infernalis,and then later the hatchlings cross again with the tetrataenia's,i think the specie will be much stronger again,but i think that we get hybrides and that is not the answer.....

[Thamnophis]

Crossing with infernalis is not a good idea. By the way, this gives nu hybrids, but integrades.

But next to that, there is òne official bloodline in Europe (that from Blijdorp Zoo who got them from Jersey Zoo on Guernsey) as far as I know.
The line from Austria seems to have never existed.

But... I am almost certain that there are tetrataenia´s illegally imported in the last twenty years ore so. I have no prove for this though...

[jewel-dragons]

Originally Posted by Thamnophis

Crossing with infernalis is not a good idea. By the way, this gives nu hybrids, but integrades.

But next to that, there is òne official bloodline in Europe (that from Blijdorp Zoo who got them from Jersey Zoo on Guernsey) as far as I know.
The line from Austria seems to have never existed.

But... I am almost certain that there are tetrataenia´s illegally imported in the last twenty years ore so. I have no prove for this though...

okay but when i cross the baby's agaim with the tetrataenia's,i get stronger animals?

[GarterGuy]

Originally Posted by jewel-dragons

when it was possible,i will change 20 san francisco's just for one from the usa.... just for the new bloodline....
but i think that's impossible....

i was thinking to cross the tetrataenia with the infernalis,and then later the hatchlings cross again with the tetrataenia's,i think the specie will be much stronger again,but i think that we get hybrides and that is not the answer.....

Actually I think Alan Francis is already doing this with his T.s.tertataenia, to try and get some "fresh blood" into them. You won't actually be creating a hybrid.....T.s.tertaenia and T.s.infernalis are just subspecies that actually used to cross at one time. When it comes right down to it....a T.s.tertaenia is just a T.s.infernalis with stripes instead of the red bars when you really look at them. Personally I don't know how I feel about this, I like the idea of having "pure" subspecies, but at the same time, for the sake of the SanFrans. getting some genetic diversity in them, I can't argue with it. I mean let's face it.....all the snakes in captivity now are so removed from what they were in the wild anyways. If this is the only way to keep this subspecies somewhat viable....I say go for it!

[Thamnophis]

If you put infernalis in tetrataenia, you have no tetrataenia anymore.
So personally I want to keep my animals as pure as possible.

By the way... Two thousand dollar for a pair T. s. tetrataenia´s is a lot of money!!
I bought my three specimen for € 75,--, € 110,-- and € 125,--. This are the normal prices for juveniles in Holland (and the rest of Europe?)
Do not know the prices for adult specimen, but more than the double of what I mentioned for juveniles it will not be.

[sschind]

Originally Posted by Thamnophis

If you put infernalis in tetrataenia, you have no tetrataenia anymore.
So personally I want to keep my animals as pure as possible.

I agree, why bother with the whole subspecies thing if intergrading them will become the acceptable practice. It doesn't matter to me if it is a rare subspecies or a common one. If there are going to be subspecific classification it needs to be kept pure.

I remember a few years back the fish and wildlife service was considering crossing the few (less than 10 I believe) dusky seaside sparrows (a Florida songbird) with the more common seaside sparrow. My thoughts were the same then. What is the point? you didn't save a species from extinction you polluted the whole lot.

[Stefan-A]

Originally Posted by sschind

I remember a few years back the fish and wildlife service was considering crossing the few (less than 10 I believe) dusky seaside sparrows (a Florida songbird) with the more common seaside sparrow. My thoughts were the same then. What is the point? you didn't save a species from extinction you polluted the whole lot.

I think it's slightly different. Purity is less of a problem in the wild, as long as the outcome is an animal that can fill the same ecological niche. Saving a species shouldn't be an end in itself, it has to serve a purpose. I'm not saying that it could fill the same niche in this case, but with less than 10 individuals you'd be getting desperate and that solution seems more desperate than purely idiotic.
In captivity (and I don't mean conservation programs), keeping the lines pure serves no other purpose than satisfying the keepers.

[Snaky]

Originally Posted by Thamnophis

If you put infernalis in tetrataenia, you have no tetrataenia anymore.
So personally I want to keep my animals as pure as possible.

By the way... Two thousand dollar for a pair T. s. tetrataenia´s is a lot of money!!
I bought my three specimen for € 75,--, € 110,-- and € 125,--. This are the normal prices for juveniles in Holland (and the rest of Europe?)
Do not know the prices for adult specimen, but more than the double of what I mentioned for juveniles it will not be.

In Belgium the price you pay is a bit more... It will be more in the range 125-150€. So I always buy everything in Holland (Also of course the fact that you'll have to try very hard to find good breeders in belgium for thamnophis )

[Thamnophis]

Maybe, if there are only less than 10 individuals of a certain (sub-)species you better let nature do what it does. The free niche will be taken by another species or subspecies.
Sinde there are living creatures on this globe there has been extinction of species.

[abcat1993]

Is it still considered extinct if there are specimens in captivity?