Some people...

[Stefan-A]

I guess you could call me a moral relativist. I don't have much of a reason to judge their actions, even if I myself wouldn't act the same way towards animals.

Originally Posted by mikm

I question the value of one's own life if you are so easily able to snuff out anothers with no regard for it's pain.

I don't see the connection. Living organisms in general show absolutely no regard for other organisms' pain.

[garterman07]

yeah but other organisms that don't have a brain as developed as ours only see other ogranisms as food. humans are the only animals that kill for the sake of it, or kill just to inflict pain, other animals kill other animals for food, shelters, protection, a place to lay their eggs, offerings in a mating ritual. but it is only humans that have the little disregard for others well being. and because of that in another year i am going to iraq to help stop people from trying to genocide other people.

[adamanteus]

Originally Posted by Stefan-A

Living organisms in general show absolutely no regard for other organisms' pain.

While that is undoubtedly true Stefan, I like to think that we are removed from other species in so far as we have an understanding of that pain and can see right from wrong in our own actions. What sets us apart is that we have (or should have) a conscience. And as someone else already stated, only humans kill for pleasure. I think our species is basically flawed.

[Stefan-A]

I think you both might be wrong. I have more questions than answers, I'm afraid.

Our brain is more developed, but is it significantly more developed and is that difference even relevant? We can observe other species and judge their mental abilities, but who judges ours? Again, it's a matter of perspective, but all of our actions stem from our own instincts. Our tendency to kill "for fun" or to inflict pain comes from some psychological need, that is as convincing as any hunger or need to reproduce. Even the question if we even have free will comes into the picture if you want to judge our actions.

Dogs kill for fun. Cats kill for fun. Even dolphins, supposedly the second or third most intelligent animals, kill for fun. I don't think our species does anything that other species don't, I just think that we are slightly more efficient. In fact, the closer we come to our own species, the more of our own nastiest tendencies we see.

The thought that our species is flawed is not something I can agree with, either.

[adamanteus]

I can't agree with any of that Stefan. I feel no "convincing psychological need" to kill for pleasure.

Dogs and cats don't kill for fun. They kill through instinct, they are driven by that instinct to take food when they can, because in the wild they would never be sure of when their next meal might be. We keep them well fed as pets, but their instinct to hunt remains in tact. But it is an instinct to hunt, not to kill for pleasure. They lack the ability to reason that their next meal will be in a bowl on the kitchen floor at a given time. They kill because they believe they must. We do not lack this reason, we understand and yet we still kill, even species which are not a prey animal for us.

[garterman07]

i agree with we can see the difference between right and wrong. but the fact that we still kill for pleasure is still there, some people are just sick. but animals killing other animals thats not just senseless, when another kills another in the animal kingdom we can't judge what they did cause we're not in their mind, you see a great white tear apart a seal you might say wow that shark must be hungry while others will say it just kills for the sake of it. how can you besure your not that shark. but more than likely an animal will eat or try and get food when the option presents its self.

[adamanteus]

Chris, everything you just said...I agree with completely.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry for splitting your post like this, hope you don't think I'm treating the parts out of context.

Originally Posted by adamanteus

I can't agree with any of that Stefan. I feel no "convincing psychological need" to kill for pleasure.

You don't, other people do. You can't assume that everybody functions the same way.

Compulsive needs are compulsive needs. They aren't truly controllable even in our own case. If we are supposed to assume that we aren't superior, then we need assume that our ability to control ourselves might not be either.

Dogs and cats don't kill for fun. They kill through instinct, they are driven by that instinct to take food when they can, because in the wild they would never be sure of when their next meal might be.

Eating meat because you like the taste, is killing for fun, strictly speaking. Like I said, we too are killing out of instinct and like any animal with the opportunity, we kill more than necessary. What can't be directly justified by survival or reproduction, we simply write off as "fun". "Fun" is a blanket term that covers a lot of needs.

We keep them well fed as pets, but their instinct to hunt remains in tact. But it is an instinct to hunt, not to kill for pleasure. They lack the ability to reason that their next meal will be in a bowl on the kitchen floor at a given time.

Killing to satisfy a need (any need) is an instinct.

They kill because they believe they must. We do not lack this reason, we understand and yet we still kill, even species which are not a prey animal for us.

How is that different from people killing because they believe ("feel" might be more appropriate in both cases) they must? What we feel ourselves might not apply to all members of our species. The "I can, why can't everybody else?" line of reasoning doesn't apply.

All I'm saying is that the issue is much more complex than you seem to think.

[drache]

it's an issue of huge complexity
I'd just like to add that just because one has consciousness, it does not necessarily mean one can always govern ones actions
there is fascinating research showing that even slime molds have decision making ability
we don't know what they base their decisions on - supposedly mostly food needs
there are many humans that base their decisions on primitive instincts without any awareness
and there are those of us, who, through practice have sharpened their awareness sufficiently to understand that control is just a thin veneer
any time something can alter our perception to the extend, that we base our decisions on erroneous info
this happens in small ways most of the time, but throw in a few oddballs in terms of upbringing, traumatic events, or genetics and it can show up in bigger ways
I doubt that generally animals kill "for fun"
I believe that that is learned behavior and often it is human's idea of fun
we've trained them to kill
of course there is no reason either to suppose that animals are always "sane"
we've all seen animals who for reasons of upbringing, traumatic events, or genetics are not quite right, or worse
we all live in this world

[mikm]

Hello Stefan ... I agree this topic can be controversial as there is much too it. I just read an article on brain mapping experiments being conducted to determine the source of 'free will'. My statement quoted below came fresh after reading an article where two young boys (brothers) I believe tortured and killed a puppy. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things I am comparing apples to oranges so to speak.

Originally Posted by mikm
I question the value of one's own life if you are so easily able to snuff out anothers with no regard for it's pain.

enjoy your day ...
marian