My new garter(s)

[mikem]

wow the blue anery is i would have assumed that was a puget. it would be neat to see a group shot of all the different variations of concinnus together.

[chris-uk]

But there are some mexican cyrtopsis type species that can be difficult to identify.

You mean some Mexican equis species? I thought there were only 2 cyrtopsis species?
But agreed, some of the other T. equis species are a lot more difficult to tell apart than the cuitzeoensis. You can't really mistake a Cuitzeo with it's jet black body, white chin and pink underside of to it's tail. Not even a melanistic morph looks like a Cuitzeo because they lack the chin and tail colour.

[ConcinnusMan]

I just mean there are mexican species that look a lot like blacknecks, and they are variable and somewhat obscure and hard to I.D. without exact location info.

[chris-uk]

OK. Yes, you're spot on with the location information being one of the most important pieces of information when it comes to a positive ID.

[ConcinnusMan]

wow the blue anery is i would have assumed that was a puget.

Why? Most pugets aren't blue either, and when pugets have side spots, they are always red. Just like these blue concinnus', blue pugets are only found in a very small part of their range. Elsewhere across their range, they aren't blue at all, and in the northern part, pugets are red spotted like a normal concinnus.

[ConcinnusMan]

OK, I've been doing some research and viewing photos with locale info. Apparently, on the southern Oregon coast, T. sirtalis' there have characteristics of both fitchi and concinnus. In other words, they look like the snakes in this thread. While that location is a bit outside the range of concinnus and within fitchi range, that area appears to be an intergrade zone. Snakes there aren't quite concinnus, not quite fitchi. As you go south into California, staying on the coast, the snakes gradually start to take on more infernalis characteristics.

Something similar happens in WA. The southern WA coastline has snakes that are very much like concinnus' but tend to have lateral stripes and dark heads. As you go north along the coast they gradually take on more pickeringi characteristics and it becomes difficult to say whether they are concinnus or red spotted pugets.

The validity of subspecies is often challenged. It's not all "black and white". There are "gray" areas. The fact is, all of these are T. sirtalis and separating by subspecies is like separating humans by race, and as you all know, races mix.

If you wanted to breed these questionable snakes, I don't see anything wrong with breeding two of them from the same area. You wouldn't be artificially creating "intergrades" or hybrids that way.

[mikem]

Why? Most pugets aren't blue either, and when pugets have side spots, they are always red.

because i wasn't that familiar with the variation in concinnus and would have assumed a black and blue garter equals puget. i'm still fairly new to the garter scene and learning more and more everyday!

and a big thanks for doing more research! i wasn't expecting that, very nice of you! i completely understand what you're saying about the way they take on similiar characteristics from the intergrade zone and radiate out from that area. makes since. i guess the snakes aren't too picky with one another when breeding season comes round and will take advantage of whatever garter is within their range, no matter the subspecies. i like the human analogy you made there, very true. we humans aren't picky either. as long as our partner is accepting, we generally go for it, lol!

[ConcinnusMan]

I just mean that whether they are concinnus' or fitchii, both of those are still the same species; T. sirtalis

Both are also specifically western located sirtalis'.

[ConcinnusMan]

I say more about this here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9956-mouse-meat-activity-cycle-2.html#post198362

[katach]

And some have no lateral markings, like my two ladies.

Why? Most pugets aren't blue either, and when pugets have side spots, they are always red. Just like these blue concinnus', blue pugets are only found in a very small part of their range. Elsewhere across their range, they aren't blue at all, and in the northern part, pugets are red spotted like a normal concinnus.