Running out of tricks, need advice

[anji1971]

If you have a basement that stays cool or a small fridge kicking around you can keep worms for the winter, Stefan. (well, at least most of the winter- I'm sure they are longer where you are than here!) I go outside for the last week or so before it freezes, and catch as many nightcrawlers as I can get my hands on. Then I throw them all in buckets of dirt, and keep them in the corner of the basement where it stays fairly cool. Just make sure to keep the dirt wet and top it up with unfertilized potting soil every couple weeks. Most of the worms live through the winter and a picky eater snake is still happy!! I understand the nutrition is not topnotch with this diet, but while you work on persuading the snake to eat other things it at least keeps her fat and happy

[KITKAT]

I want to interrupt here with a comment that I have long held back.

I do not agree with most members that earthworms are of inferior nutritional value. My land and surrounding area is devoid of any source of fish as a food item for garters. Yet, we have a very healthy population of T sirtalis sirtalis on our property and in the surrounding area.

What are they eating? They have absolutely no access to fish.

In the 60's, when hippies were really deep into the mother earth movement, earthworms were proposed as a human food for areas of the planet where protein was hard to find. Of course for aesthetic reasons, this idea never gained popularity.

But remembering that, I did some searching, and found a number of articles on the nutritional content of earthworms, including the following information:

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http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=096...3E2.0.CO%3B2-J

ABSTRACT: For the Makiritare (Ye'Kuana) native people of the Alto Orinoco (Venezuela), earthworms (Anellida: Glossoscolecidae) are an important component of the diet. Two species in particular are widely consumed: 'kuru' (Andiorrhinus kuru n. sp.) and 'motto' (Andiorrhinus motto). We analysed eviscerated kuru body proper, and whole and smoked preparations of motto for their content of protein and amino acids, fatty acids and 20 minerals and trace elements. The samples contained large amounts of protein (64.5-72.9% of dry weight), essential amino acids, calcium and iron together with notable quantities of other important elements, indicating that these earthworms contain potentially useful quantities of many nutrients that are critical to the health of the humans who consume them.

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http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/NAP/03-085.pdf

A small segment of this article states:

Earthworm meal has an amino acid composition very similar to that of fishmeal and potentially superior to meat meal. Similarly the composition of the lipid component is similar to some fish oils; it is relatively high in

ϕ3 polyunsaturated lipids. Therefore they are high quality products that have
the potential to receive premium prices. Earthworm production systems have not been developed where the profitability of the enterprise is determined by the sale of the worm based on its value as a
source of ϕ3 oil, protein meal, or for the value of the castings as a by-product of an oil and meal production system.
There is an increasing need for high quality protein sources for use in intensive industries. Fish meal is unlikely to be able to fill this gap, if anything, ethical issues of extensive fish harvesting are likely
to lead to a decline in the use of fish meal in animal rations. The lipid content of earthworms can vary between 1 and 20% of the dry matter and it also appears that the amino acid composition varies with
worm diet. There is considerable scope to identify or select worms that will maximise these desirable components or to develop feeding regimes to achieve the desired outcome. The integration of waste

utilisation with the production of high quality commercial products is an attractive concept.

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Over all, I believe that worms can be a nutritionally balanced meal for garters. I am always happier when my garters eat fish, due to the changes in their elimination which make cage sanitation easier. I do not necessarily believe that pinkie feeding is the better nutrition... although I will note in passing that some of our parasite worries are eliminated by the feeding of mice. But logic tells me that if it were better to eat mice, the garter would have evolved to include that food source as part of their diet. Therefore, my garters have returned, once again, to fish as the staple diet, with worms and pinkies being used to provide variety.

For that reason, I do not feel that a garter which will only eat worms, is a problem, other than the fact that some keepers may have problems getting that food as a year-round source, and the fact that the fecal material put out by that snake will be watery.

This winter, I plan to experiment with keeping worms in my basement, as well as my refridgerator. I'll report my findings in early summer.

[drache]

I keep small quantities of worms in my fridge all the time
they're in a thick styrofoam container, specifically designed for bait worms
it can fit over fifty large worms
the dirt needs to get sprayed from time to time and they need to get fed
they need very little

[anji1971]

[quote=KITKAT;29524]

I do not agree with most members that earthworms are of inferior nutritional value. My land and surrounding area is devoid of any source of fish as a food item for garters. Yet, we have a very healthy population of T sirtalis sirtalis on our property and in the surrounding area.

KitKat, I'm kind of relieved that you wrote this! Since I've been researching the last couple of weeks, i've been trying to find other foods than earthworms for my snake because i keep reading that they aren't the best for them, and now i won't go so crazy trying to make her eat fish and stuff- which, incidentally, she wants nothing to do with!!! What you just posted makes a lot of sense, and my snake does seem pretty healthy. So maybe Stefan, you don't need to worry so much either!

[adamanteus]

Stefans problem is not the nutritional value of earthworms, it is that earthworms will be impossible to find in frozen Finland for the next seven months!

[zooplan]

Earthworms are not worse than other food to garters but you´ll have to feed more and get more feces.

[drache]

yup
that is a problem - the worm supply

[Stefan-A]

Thanks, KitKat. Very useful.

However, I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. Many garter species do include them, or rather, they don't exclude them from their diets. Second, their current situation doesn't give any kind of information regarding the direction of their evolution. Is eating mice becoming more common, or less common? Their strength has been the ability to change food source depending on competition and availability. The specialized rodent eaters don't really have that ability, even if they can take birds. Amphibians are the most common prey, and logic says that one should try to feed them animals that are as close as possible to them in terms of nutritional content. Whichever comes closest, mice or fish, doesn't matter. The point is that worms are very different.

The calcium content is a concern though, even if it appears to me to be easier to supplement than I thought at first. The availability is however a bigger problem. But most of all, it's probably the issue of having a snake change its preferences so drastically, that's unnerving.

[drache]

hm
I wonder whether there is perhaps some nutritional element in worms that could cause a craving type response

[anji1971]

Originally Posted by adamanteus

Stefans problem is not the nutritional value of earthworms, it is that earthworms will be impossible to find in frozen Finland for the next seven months!

I know that over here in fairly frozen Canada we have bait shops that sell worms all winter for those who like ice-fishing! Do they have anything like that over in Finland??