The Thiaminase Debate

[adamanteus]

Originally Posted by GarterGuy

One thing that worries me, is that it almost seem like we're trying to make excuses to feed thiaminase containing fish.

Very good point, Roy. I don't think anyone is actually doing that, but it would be very wrong of us to 'play down' the effects of thiaminase. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... trout is safe, readily available and affordable, and most of my Garters accept it in preference to any other fish.

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by adamanteus

Very good point, Roy. I don't think anyone is actually doing that, but it would be very wrong of us to 'play down' the effects of thiaminase. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... trout is safe, readily available and affordable, and most of my Garters accept it in preference to any other fish.

Now, if only we could find somewhere that offers juvenile trout.

And, has anyone looked into a saltwater *I think it is* fish called silversides? I used to give them to my fish, and perhaps they'd be safe as well. They're sold frozen, so that would make them conveinient...

[Zephyr]

Also...
For those fish that will only take goldfish, has any one tried offering them a pinky or other food item scented with goldfish? This would solve ALOT of problems...

[tikichick]

I know amphibians are listed as a food source, but what about Mediterranean house geckos?

[sschind]

Well, I tried a scented live pinkie with the male pickeringii and he went for it right away. Unfortunately he grabbed it back end first and after 5 minutes of trying to swallow it he gave up. Still, encouraging results for the first try. I'll keep looking through the mouse colonies for the tiniest ones I can find and try it again. He grabbed it so fast that I think if I offer it to him head first from a tweezers he may still go for it. I didn't do that this time because I thought he might be intimidated.

Speaking of small pinkies, does anyone here in the states have pygmy mice (Mus minutoides)? Email me if you know of anyone who has them.

Steve

[KITKAT]

I fed fathead minnows and roseys together with earthworms and pinkies for years and never had a case... but after seeing this one poor little baby die of it, I will never risk it again. It was a horrible thing to watch, and it sickened me.

Originally Posted by GarterGuy

As far as adult snakes not being affected by thiaminase, I unfortunately had first hand experiance that this is not true. My first garter (a Manitoba T.s.parietalis) was fed a diet consisting of mostly goldfish and other thiaminase containing frozen fish (I think I used smelt). She lived for 9.5yrs.....but met her end very badly with convulsions and total lack of neuromuscular control. I agree that it does probably affect younger snakes fast, just simply because they are in an excellerated state of growth and developement...but adults are not immune to it and over time they can suffer the same devestating affects.
One thing that worries me, is that it almost seem like we're trying to make excuses to feed thiaminase containing fish, maybe due to the fact that they are so readily available, rather then putting a bit more effort in and making sure that are snakes are provided with the best possible diets. I know some snakes will accept little else then fish or even live fish, but I think we still have to make it an effort to provide them with species that possibly won't cause them any problems. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be safe then sorry and I wouldn't want to put another snake through the horror of what I know thiaminase poisoning can do.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Lizards aren't a real common part of garter's diets...however I have had a wandering garter eat several sagebrush lizards that I left in his cage...not thinking she would eat them.

[Thamnophis]

Before reading all the reactions I want to say the following:

Maybe they eat a lot of goldfish, but these have belly's filled with natural food (I presume). In this is Vitamin B1 present, amongst others. And a frog every now and then also helps.

If you see no snakes in the wild that seem to suffer from thiaminase means there is no problem.

Also in captivity there are not that many snakes that suffer from thiaminase. This are still exceptions.

I am convinced that thiaminase is not such a big problem in general watersnakekeeping.
But it looks like some specimen are more sensitive for it than others. And maybe some species more than other species.

I have personally never had a problem with thiaminase. And I kept Thamnophis, Nerodia, Xenochrophis, Rhabdophis and Natrix for over 35 years. And I never give additional Vitamin B1.
I only use multivitaminproducts (where some B1 is in).
I feed smelt, chickenmeat, and some fishfilet (Pangasius ypopthalmus, Clarias lazerna) and every now and the a pinky or jumper mouse.
I do not heat the fish. I thaw the frozen fish in roomtemperature. Sometimes in lukewarm water when I am in a hurry.

[sschind]

The third installment of the picky pickeringii saga. I found a very small live pinky this morning, washed it off and scented it with a rosey, offered it to the snake head first on a tweezers, he grabbed it and after a few minutes trying to figure out what to do with it he got it down. I'm writing this from the library computer right now and I just remembered that I didn't want to scare him when I snapped the lid of the deli cup on so I just lightly pushed it on. I hope its sealed well enough or i will be trying to find a 6 inch snake in a haystack.

oh well, at least he should be on pinkies now so that should make things easier. If I do find him.

[GarterGuy]

Originally Posted by ssssnakeluvr

I'm not trying to make excuses to use goldfish....I haven't fed goldfish for a number of years...basically since I found out on the internet about the thiaminase problems (and just started breeding and raising them seriously). I feed them a variety also....rodents, fish, worms, and occasional slugs.

Sorry Don, not directed at you.....just a general comment.