PUGET Update (Vet Visit & more ;))

[garterking]

Just an update:
I sent a very professional email to "bob" and let him know that I posted about him and his snakes. I took a couple days to think it thru before I sent it.
I also sent him a link here and told him others (no names) have either heard of him, bought from him, know someone who has bought from him, etc. I let him know that I posted what I knew and heard and that myself and others were not satisfied with him or his snakes. I told him that I was making it a mission of mine to find other boards that he advertises on and let them know as well, and that if he starts to keep better care of his snakes, and sends out HEALTHY ones that I would also let the boards know he changed his ways. I still have a bit of hope left.
I'll let you know when/if I hear anything back from him.

[Snaky]

That is a big statement, but it's a very noble one. New buyers will certainly be happy if you warn them about him.

[Sid]

Garterking, I feel you are taking the correct approach. My hats off to you.

Sid

[KITKAT]

I hope Cazador and Garterkiing will chime in here...

My ordinoides (if that is what they are, I am still not sure) that I got from "Bob" have been fine. After my concinnus had mites, I did treat them with frontline and later with flagyl.

They are in a 55 gallon aquarium, with a tough top lid, in my basement which generally runs about 65 degrees in winter. They have a basking light pointed at a tree branch that is propped up for climbing and lounging.

The substrate is about two inches deep, and is aspen shavings.

I put minnows or rosey reds in their water dish, or nightcrawlers in a shallow dish, and they disappear, although I never see them feeding. I assume they are both eating, however, as their condition continues to look good.

They are gentle and easy to handle, although they are a bit quicker than the gentle easterns I used to keep.

One difference I have noticed in their behavior is that they love to burrow. They are often under the substrate.

I have an inverted flower pot with two holes in the rim for entry, to use as a hide. The male spends alot of time in the hide, the female generally joins him for short periods of time and spends the rest of her time in the substrate tunnels they have made. Because of the burrowing, they are always covered with wood dust, as you can see in my caption photo (see February caption contest).

The male is about to shed... and when he does, what shall I count to confirm that these are T ordinoides, and not T s pickeringii?

[mikm]

I would like the same info as KitKat as I have never done a scale count. Interestingly enough, I found the following ...

Puget Sound (T. s. pickeringii), resembles Red-spotted, except back stripe largely confined to 1 scale row instead of 2 and top of head dark; Vancouver Island, adjacent coastal sw. British Columbia and w. Washington.

I found this description here >>>
eNature: FieldGuides: Species Detail


If this proves true then my animals are pickeringii as their back stripe is very fine, definitaley/barely only one row.


BTW ... my ICU girls are doing very well ... I even got them to take 2 f/t pinks each (tossed in with their fish) this past weekend.

[GarterGuy]

Sometimes it's very difficult to determine what species you've got just by colour pattern alone. Within a species, subspecies and even from individual to individual you can have quite a bit of variation. Scale counts though, I believe, are a much better way of determining species, since this should be relatively constant through out the species. Personally, I don't like to limit it to any one characteristic, but instead take everything into account when trying to make a determination. This also includes, geographical info. on the snakes (ie. where they came from), size, body shape, ect., anything that can help me to determine what it is. You really just can't take one thing and say, "Well it has this, so it must be this."...that's just bad science. Bad...vey bad!

[mikm]

thanks GG ... I'm not sure exactly how the scale count is done. I'll have to take a pic to do it anyway as I don't want add any undue stress at the moment. I could not find a pic of an identified ordinoides with such a thin stripe but I did see a few pics of pickeringii with the extremely thin stripe that's why I was asking ...

thanks for sharing GG ... this is such a nice forum

[Cazador]

Hi all,
First, I'm glad your snakes are still doing well, Kitkat & Marian. That's great news! Kitkat, yours were ill for a while, weren't they? The range of the T.s. pickeringii and T. ordinoides overlaps in Washington, so unfortunately that one doesn't exclude either. Sometimes, you see one of these blue snakes with a very blunt, rounded head. It is clearly a T. ordinoides. Then you see some with thin, more pointed heads, which make you wonder if they might be T.s. pickeringii. However, all seem to have 17 dorsal scale rows, which is a defining characteristic of the ordinoides. Here's that link about how to do the counts (Key to California Gartersnakes). Just click on the blue link on that page that says "Scale Count at mid-Body" to see a picture showing how to do it. You'll also notice that T. ordinoides usually has 8,9 lower labials, but T. sirtalis normally has 10. The dorsal scale count and the head shape seem to be the most reliable, though. I'll check a Peterson's field guide for more info and send PMs with more details if they're helpful (since I'd be plagiarizing).
Rick

P.S. Given the variation in head shape, but consistent scale counts of 17, I sometimes wonder if we may be dealing with hybrids between the two species? Sometimes their heads look VERY different from one another.

[KITKAT]

I have not sexed my snakes yet, but they do appear to be male and female. The female is larger and heavier, if I am guessing their sex correctly.

What do you think about the head shape of my snakes? (See photo of the female, below)

Also... no... they were never sick. It was the T.s.concinnus that I got at a local herp show, that were sick. I did use frontline on the ordinoides, because they had been in the same room as the concinnus. By the way, they burrow alot. That is wood dust from the aspen shavings that you see in the photo (not mites).

[Cazador]

Hi Kitkat,
To me, the head on your snake appears more pointy and triangular. Contrast it to the picture, below, that looks more like a T. ordinoides. Yours also has a VERY thin blue, dorsal stripe. From your photo, it appears to be only 1/2 - 1 scale widths? Both species have thin dorsal stripes, but the books actually mention that Puget Sound garters (T.s. pickeringii) have thin dorsal stripes. I wouldn't be surprised if the snakes in your and my pictures were different, but similar, species. I've been reading up on these, but using the descriptions to distinguish between them is still a bit confusing. The dorsal row scale counts seem to be the most unique characteristic between the two species.



Here's another: