T.s.sirtalis genetics question

[sschind]

I have a couple of genetics questions regarding eastern garter snakes. Some of you may recall that I once had a pair of melanistic T.s.sirtalis babies that were CBB and were supposed to be het for flame. Well, I had to get rid of them a while back but through a round about way I did end up with 1.2 babies from this pair about a month ago. The female had given birth to 8 babies and all were melanistic. In talking with someone about them I was told that the melanistic gene is a dominant gene and that even if the parents are het for flame that any babies born would be melanistic. I have since lost the male so now I have two healthy looking females. I don't know if the guy I got them from has any males left or not so I don't know if I can replace him. Anyway, here are my questions.

1. What is the classification (if that is the correct term) of the melanistic gene in T.s.sirtalis (dominant, recessive, other)?

2. What is the classification of the flame gene in T.s.sirtalis?

3. Was the info I received correct about the melanistic gene and all babies being melanistic even if the parents carry the flame gene?

If the info above is correct it would seem to me that I could use any old T.s.sirtalis male and produce clutches that may be mixed normals and melanistic. My problem with that is I really have no outlet for normal babies. According to Wisconsin laws I can sell native reptiles that are atypically colored and melanistic would fall into that category but I can not sell normals. I feel that it may not be responsible for me to release the normal babies. I don't know if I could give them away or not and I don't want to be put in a situation where I have to decide what to do with a bunch of garter snake babies.

Making a few assumptions here, 1 being that melanism is a dominant gene, 2 that flame is a recessive gene, 3 the parents of my babies were het for flame, 4 my babies are possible het for flame. I have come to the conclusion that it would make more sense for me to aquire a male flame to replace my deceased male rather than replace him with another melanistic or melanistic het for flame. This would theoretically give me a better chance to produce flames. My reasoning is this.

If my babies are het for flame and I bred them to a flame male I should get 50/50 melanistic/flame. If I bred them to a melanistic they would all be melanistic if I bred them to a normal I would get 75/25 melanistic/normal. If I bred them to a melanistic het for flame I would get 75/25 melanistic/flame. If I bred them to a normal het for flame I would get 25/50/25 normal het for flame/melanistic/flame

Of course, with my limited understanding of genetics I might be further ahead to let tommy boy hit me over the head with a tack hammer than to try to explain all this.

Assuming that my previous assumptions and conclusions are correct is there anything special I should be looking for in a flame. I have seen some pretty intense reds on some of them but the prices were pretty intense also. I know why and I understand it but my main question is would any old flame work. Obviously I will look for the best I can afford but price is a bit of an issue. I should mention that I got the babies for $20.00 each and I traded the guy $60.00 worth of rats and mice that I had produced so I got them real cheap. I suppose I could look at it like I got the females so cheap I can afford to spend a bit more on the male and If I had the money it wouldn't be an issue but right now I don't.

I know this isn't the most fluid of posts and I have made a lot of assumptions that may or may not turn out to be true but I figured that if I could get help anywhere it would be here.

Thanks

Steve

[snakeman]

Melanistic is a recessive gene.Flame is a co-dominant gene.If you breed a high red flame to a normal snake.You will get some flames.Some will be normal and will become adults and still look normal.Just because they came from a flame does'nt mean they will produce flames .It is not a het. gene.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

1. What is the classification (if that is the correct term) of the melanistic gene in T.s.sirtalis (dominant, recessive, other)?

THe melanistic gene is a recessive gene, and that goes for every snake I have ever seen a melanistic gene in.



2. What is the classification of the flame gene in T.s.sirtalis?
The flame gene is co-dominant. If you breed two average flames, you should theoretically get flames with a few that are more than average red. If you bred a flame to a normal snake, you should get some flames and some normals. Chances are, if you take two non-flame snakes from that litter and breed them, you will not get any flames. There is no "het" form of this gene, heterozygous only applies to simple recessive genes, where the snake has one dominant allele and a recessive one. Normally, the normal looking gene is the dominant one, and the oddity (albino, melanistic, etc...) is the recessive one.




3. Was the info I received correct about the melanistic gene and all babies being melanistic even if the parents carry the flame gene?

unfortunately, no. If you breed a normal male sirtalis to these females, you are going to get all normal babies that are 100% het for melanism. If the females are actually flames (you don't really know because you can't see it under all that black!) then there is a chance that you would get some flames in that breeding. But it's not a sure thing. The females are either flames, or they are not. They are not hets. If you breed a melanistic male to these females, you will get all melanistic babies, and you will have no stinkin' idea whether a flame gene is at play or not. If you breed a male flame to them, you will get some normals and hopefully some flames that are all 100% het melanistic. If you breed a SUPER red male to them, you have a much higher chance of producing flames, but they still will all be only hets for melanistic.

Your best shot at producing all sellable babies is to get a melanistic male and forget about the flame thing.

hope that helps out a little!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Darn those co-dominant genes! I had an Okeetee corn snake with Aztec/zig-zag co-dominant gene. 3 years and 3 healthy hatchings produced only 2 snakes with the trait (amazingly they had more Aztec than their mother!). Only 2 (and this only in the 3rd breeding) out of a total of around 50 neonates.

I try to avoid them..... Hmmmm, but these flames look awfully attractive.....

But then so do Bloodred corns, and they can be a genetic nightmare!

[sschind]

Thank you all so much. That is exactly what I was looking for. As soon as I get off the phone with the infernal revenue service (on hold for 25 minutes so far) I'm going to call the guy I got them from. If he doesn't have a baby male maybe I can get the parents back.

Steve

[infernalis]

I had to join in on this one, I have been obsessed with flames for years. Ever since I saw the picture of Dr. Alan Francis' high red super flame!

Well I invested in a flame from Scott Felzer, and as luck would have it, I caught a wild specimen in my yard! (30+ years of flipping rocks, boards or whatever I can find, and this is the first ever eastern I have picked up off the ground with red stripes on it's sides and a white stripe on it's back.)

Then the next day, I found a female eastern with only hints of red on the edges of her scales, and there is that white back stripe again. This gal turned out to be gravid, so she is in a tank (spoiled rotten) until the neonates arrive.

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

[sschind]

Well, He sold the rest of the clutch and the parents so I'm SOL unless someone here has a baby melanistic male. I was tempted to go with 2.2 for this very reason but I was too cheap. I guess I don't have to be in too much of a hurry, even if I have to wait until next year to get one it won't hurt to have a male that is a year younger than the females anyway. That way I won't be tempted to breed the females too early which I personally think happened with this pair of parents anyway. They were less than 2 years old which would help explain the small clutch.

[infernalis]

So what would be the opinion of this little snake (NOT my snake here)

http://www.reformedsniper.net/GSM/g_snake-3.jpg

what exactly would this coloration be called?

I am a real Genetics rookie, but I would have called this a "semi-melanitic flame"

Next big question, as this one grows up, would the black eventualy "consume" the red masking it completely?

Whatever it is, I want one:D

Wayne

[snakeman]

Looks like a northwestern garter.They have all kinds of weird colors.I once saw a pic of underneath a board.There was 5 northwestern garters and every one was a different color.

[adamanteus]

Looks like a northwestern garter.They have all kinds of weird colors.I once saw a pic of underneath a board.There was 5 northwestern garters and every one was a different color.

Yes, it does look like T.ordinoides, doesn't it. But I think it was wild-caught in NYS, wasn't it?

[infernalis]

I wish I knew where it came from, I was googling GS images, and it was one of them.

Handsome little devil!

Cheers,
Wayne

[Lori P]

Oooh, I like that little red snake!!

[adamanteus]

In that case, Wayne, I would suggest that 'snakeman' is right, and it's probably T.ordinoides.

[drache]

it's a beautiful snake

[snakeman]

I remember the snake you are talking about.Have nt heard anything else about that snake.Have'nt heard anything about the scaleless eastern that was found a couple of years ago either.

[adamanteus]

Scaleless? What? Literally scaleless, as in 'no scales'?

[Snake lover 3-25]

??????????????

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow it's true!!!!!!!

Scaleless Texas ratsnake (http://www.herper.com/strange/scalelesspics.html)

[el lobo]

Melanistic is a recessive gene.Flame is a co-dominant gene.If you breed a high red flame to a normal snake.You will get some flames.Some will be normal and will become adults and still look normal.Just because they came from a flame does'nt mean they will produce flames .It is not a het. gene.

What he said. haha. It is definitely not dominant. >:(

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Looks like a northwestern garter.They have all kinds of weird colors.I once saw a pic of underneath a board.There was 5 northwestern garters and every one was a different color.

Yes, this guy looks like an ordinoides for sure! But to be sure you should do the scale row, and supra- and infra-labial scale counts.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have heard of a scaleless wandering that was found a few years back here in Salt Lake City. a friend of mine ( a division of wildlife services officer) had talked to a friend that found it and had also seen it....really odd looking snakes!!! I have seen a pic of another scaleless snakes years ago, don't remember what species it was...think it was a water snake

[garterkeeper]

Melanism is adifinate recessive.In the areas where they are found it is very ingrained in the local populations though.A friend of mine has caught many normal looking females over the years and only had 2 that did not produce mels.

[snakeman]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/scaleless.jpg
here is the pic.I don't know who took it.

[Snake lover 3-25]

WOW!!!!!! too cool!!!!!!! omg i'm in shock!!!!!!!!! :eek::eek:

[KITKAT]

So what would be the opinion of this little snake (NOT my snake here)

http://www.reformedsniper.net/GSM/g_snake-3.jpg



Not sure if others will agree, but I would call this pic "photoshopped". The skin tones on the hand are waaaay too red to be real.

[GartersRock]

Well. It does look like a little too much saturation but not enough to say it doesnt really look close to that.

OMG! That scaleless wandering is too cool!
I have seen a water snake but not a garter. =)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I would agree that there's some color manipulation, but some of the red flecked, red-striped Northwesterns in Del Norte County, CA come really close!

Steve