Parasites and pathogens

[infernalis]

Here is a subject we all take very seriously with our pets, yet there is a lot of confusion, misunderstandings and misinformation out there.

This one may be open to some controversy or debate, and I'd love to hear anyone else's take on the subject.

Whenever an animal is captive bred in a sterile environment it lacks exposure to parasites and pathogens commonly encountered in the wild, to most of us that would seem like a good thing, stick with frozen foods, wash our hands every time, bleach out that cage, and so on..

Out in the wild who does this for our snake friends? They live near mud puddles, under moldy boards, (and yes, they have been known to enter large carcasses) constantly eating the grossest stuff imaginable:eek:

Why do we keep finding vibrant healthy animals on the ground, near smelly bogs, eating infected toads and dying fish, why are they so vibrant??

Because exposure builds resistance, just like a child getting the pox, once the body deals with the initial shock, the immune system develops, and we never catch it again.

So if a captive bred snake is kept perfectly sterile, that one time you forgot to wash your hands, that one desperate time when you had no money, and went out and picked up a frog, or whatever, that first contamination, could spell the last, because the immune system was not prepared for the assault.

When I discussed this theory with my vet, she wholeheartedly agreed.

Folks who like to rescue have seen this, some of the strongest survivors are the ones kept in the filthiest cages....

[Lori P]

NOT that we advocate filty cages... :-) But yes, I agree. I believe it's called survival of the fittest... those able to overcome the constant exposure to all those creepy crawly bugs have strong immune systems. They thrive because they've overcome.

Man, do I see this in the horse world... keep them in pristine stalls, regulate their grazing time, pour un-natural grains into them, saturate them with pesticides to keep bugs off, over-innoculate them, de-worm them based on a schedule and not a need, shoe them until thier own hooves become too brittle to hold up on their own... and then wonder why the horse colics at the slightest thing, comes up lame with abcesses, becomes allergic to dust, breaks out in hives when a fly lands on him...

I think it's all about finding a balance. Care for them, keep them clean, test and treat for parasites, but don't go all sterile on them. Let them get dirty once in a while. Like with kids, right? Farm kids vs. sterilized town kids....

[infernalis]

EXACTLY!!

Many of the newer snake owners are far too concerned with "clean" food.

Chances are if you have a WC snake, it has eaten some fairly gross prey, so concerning yourself with "flash frozen salmon" or what not is overkill.

If all your feeder fish are belly up in the tank, don't feed them to your snakes, but if they are all alive and swimming about, then toss em in the water bowl :D

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have been saying the same thing for years..... and the same for kids....let them play outside and get dirty, don't sterilize everything they touch.....and all these bacteria killing cleaners are great, but I don't use them that much (love the clorox wipes tho...only thing I have found that gets rid of the musk smell!!!!) if the kids aren't exposed to any bacteria, they don't build any immunity...then we sterilize everything, the tougher bacteria survive, and then when th ey get exposed...they get the nastiest butt kicking infection!!!!

[enigma200316]

To be honest, all my snakes have a mix of items I buy, and items I collect.
I've been doing this since I first got a garter, and it has not made a differance I don't think any way, now all but my eastern were babies when I got them, and I believe the 3 I lost over the past year or so, was do to natural reasons that all babies don't survive, for whatever the reason may be....atleast once a week I will get worms from out side(nightcrawlers) of course and feed them, or I may catch some minnows and feed those to them(with the minnows I usually put vitamins on them) but anyway like I said I have had no problems and its mixed not all the time............. I would think that should help in biulding an immune system, atleast in my opinion..:)

[Garter_Gertie]

Look at me! I was eating dog food at 2-3. I never wash my hands at the park after messing with Winnie and Ripley and I've yet to get salmonella or anything.

It's also seen in the cat world, sadly. It's called "good germs to good germs." I could get into all this, but it would take me forever to do it and I'm at work. Tonite, maybe, when I'm home.

The jist of it is as how Wayne has explained it.

[anji1971]

I start even my captive born babies on worms from outside. I shake off the biggest lumps of dirt, but I don't wash them first. They eat lots of dirt in the wild.
I let them climb around out in the mimosa tree, and in the larger garden plants. They climb around a lot in the wild.
I mix captive and wild caught. I use frozen fish, but when I buy the fresh fillet, I feed them some first, then slice and freeze the rest.
I wash my hands after handling the snakes, before handling only if I've been cleaning and using chemicals.
I've always believed that it's best for them to have some contact with what would be found outdoors. Because, as already stated, the ones found outside are robust and healthy, so there must be something good about it.

[jitami]

I have been saying the same thing for years..... and the same for kids....let them play outside and get dirty, don't sterilize everything they touch.....and all these bacteria killing cleaners are great, but I don't use them that much (love the clorox wipes tho...only thing I have found that gets rid of the musk smell!!!!) if the kids aren't exposed to any bacteria, they don't build any immunity...then we sterilize everything, the tougher bacteria survive, and then when th ey get exposed...they get the nastiest butt kicking infection!!!!

Yep... I'm a preschool teacher...and a good one, but I really grappled with this career choice because I truly believe that if there's a mentally stable parent who makes a minimum effort to interact with their children the kids are better off at home with mom or dad. But, there is certainly a need and I will do my absolute best by "my" kids. We're just so limited in a daycare setting. Anyway, some of these parents are just absolutely insane about keeping the kids sparkling clean. I make it clear right from the beginning that the kids will get dirty, but every once in a while we still have a mom who agrees to this in the beginning, but gets aggravated at the dirt in the hair or whatever. I firmly believe in exactly what Don said above. If they're never exposed to anything how can their immune systems learn to react appropriately? Then we wonder why we have a huge increase in allergies to common items. Their little immune systems aren't allowed to develop as they should. I know some are born with weaker immune systems, but in general I think gradual exposure to the outside world, various foods, etc. is vital. I don't see why it would be any different for our cold blooded friends :)

[Stefan-A]

Here is a subject we all take very seriously with our pets, yet there is a lot of confusion, misunderstandings and misinformation out there.

This one may be open to some controversy or debate, and I'd love to hear anyone else's take on the subject.

Whenever an animal is captive bred in a sterile environment it lacks exposure to parasites and pathogens commonly encountered in the wild, to most of us that would seem like a good thing, stick with frozen foods, wash our hands every time, bleach out that cage, and so on..

Out in the wild who does this for our snake friends? They live near mud puddles, under moldy boards, (and yes, they have been known to enter large carcasses) constantly eating the grossest stuff imaginable:eek:

Why do we keep finding vibrant healthy animals on the ground, near smelly bogs, eating infected toads and dying fish, why are they so vibrant??

Because exposure builds resistance, just like a child getting the pox, once the body deals with the initial shock, the immune system develops, and we never catch it again.

So if a captive bred snake is kept perfectly sterile, that one time you forgot to wash your hands, that one desperate time when you had no money, and went out and picked up a frog, or whatever, that first contamination, could spell the last, because the immune system was not prepared for the assault.

When I discussed this theory with my vet, she wholeheartedly agreed.

Folks who like to rescue have seen this, some of the strongest survivors are the ones kept in the filthiest cages....
I agree, at least partially. Exposure does prepare the immune system, but I don't think that having the snakes wallow in their own **** is good for them.

[jitami]

I agree, at least partially. Exposure does prepare the immune system, but I don't think that having the snakes wallow in their own **** is good for them.

Good point Stefan! Big difference I think!

[adamanteus]

I agree and disagree at the same time!:rolleyes:
I certainly think you're right about the kids getting dirty thing.... kids are meant to play in the dirt, it's their job and it's how they build up their immune system.
The thing about pathogens and parasites in captive reptiles, is that the populations can 'explode' in a captive environment. Also the increased stress levels of captivity can lower an animals resistance to illness.
I believe their is a balance, use wild caught prey if you must. Just be aware of your snake's behaviour and watch for subtle changes.
Captivity is obviously an unnatural state... there can be no perfect or problem-free way of doing it.

[infernalis]

If anyone thinks that I implied that it was good to allow snakes to wallow like a pig, I somehow mis worded my text.

In fact, I have torn people a new one for not cleaning cages out.

Publicly shamed those who have allowed an enclosure to go uncleaned for 4 months, etc....

and obviously, if a food item was visibly sick, I leave it alone.

But fact is, toads and worms from a pesticide free area are most likely cleaner than feeders from a pet store. (there's no one to net up and hide dead ones at the pond.)

[GartersRock]

I absolutely agree Wayne!! =D

[ssssnakeluvr]

the only ampnibians mine get are ones that have passed away....most are too cute to feed off...I keep them as pets also!!!!!

[infernalis]

I try to respect the order of nature.

I will walk staring down at my feet to avid stepping on a frog, but I will not hesitate to feed it to my snake either.

baby toadlets were the perfect jump start for those non feeders

[infernalis]

To this day I still use tadpoles to "jump start" baby garters that refuse to eat.