4th litter of the year!

[reptileparadise]

And another bummer...:(
My sirtalis sirtalis gave birth to 13 babies in total. Only 5 of them healthy and alive, 3 with weird shaped heads and 5 that didn't make it out of the eggsack (also being deformed).
Both parents where het. melanistic and I totally missed the odds. There was one black in the litter and it was a stillborn.

This litter really keeps the moral up:mad:
4 litters with 9 young in total...
2 of them consisted of nothing but slugs.

Ah well, all we can do now is hope the young will eat and be healthy!
pictures will follow:)

[Stefan-A]

Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. :(

[count dewclaw]

So sorry to hear this. You are having a rough year with the garter snake litters. Hope your next one(s) are ok, if you are expecting more.

[reptileparadise]

Thanks,
I'm defenitly having a bad garter year. I''m not sure what 'caused' it...I'm still expecting 2 cyrtopsis cyrtopsis females. I'm really hoping one of them will deliver succesfully (well, I hope both will...)

[infernalis]

My Condolences for the crappy litters:(

Better luck with the next.....

[Gijs & Sabine]

You indeed have bad luck this year, Sjoerd :(
I'm very sorry for you.... fingers crossed for your cyrtopsis females :rolleyes:

[reptileparadise]

Thanks Sabine
But on the other hand...I was right predicting when she would give birth :D

[Gijs & Sabine]

Thanks Sabine
But on the other hand...I was right predicting when she would give birth :D

That's true, you are an expert !! :D

[anji1971]

Awww, Sjoerd.........
that's too bad. It has been a rough year for you. :(
But congrats on the 5 healthy ones, and hopefully your cyrtopsis litters will be a success.

[Lori P]

I'm sorry too, Sjoerd... hopefully things will improve with the next litters!

[crzy_kevo]

sorry to hear that sjoerd good luck with the cyrtopsis

[jitami]

What a rough year. Sorry Sjoerd. Will keep my fingers crossed for two nice big healthy litters coming up!

[adamanteus]

Better luck with your cyrtopsis, Sjoerd.

[Sid]

I'm sorry to hear the bad news, Sjoerd... hopefully the next ones will deliver all healthy babies.

[Snaky]

You've already had some bad luck this year...:(
I truly hope that you'll have more luck with the cyrtopsis.

[zooplan]

Hi Sjoerd,
I can imagine what you feel like.
I had to make some bad experiences to, as you know, but:

HOPE will never die;)
If there are no further and better litters this year we´ll sure look for a more successfull breeding season 2009.

[infernalis]

This makes me wonder, is the gene pool in Europe diverse enough?

Here is why I ask, if Garters are so difficult to obtain, how many sibling pairs are used for creating more snakes?? and how many generations has it been like that??

[Stefan-A]

Probably not. Then again, the cause for something like this isn't necessarily inbreeding.

[infernalis]

Probably not. Then again, the cause for something like this isn't necessarily inbreeding.


Inbreeding in itself may not be such a bad thing Stefan, but lets just use an example.

20 years down from an original pair, 10 - 12 generations of using siblings and parents to make more, would that not have a negative impact on the genetics?

[Stefan-A]

Shouldn't it only be an issue if the line was already carrying a genetic defect, in which case it would have surfaced within the first couple of generations? Or if one emerged during that time. I'd definitely like to know how big a problem inbreeding is for snakes in captivity, but it is far more likely to cause problems for humans than for rodents, for example. T. sirtalis tetrataenias in Europe can be traced back to a single pair, if you ignore the possible illegal imports. I'd like to know what the effects of inbreeding has been in their case. Judging by what I've seen here on this forum, they don't seem especially sickly or sensitive.

I don't know nearly enough about genetics, but that could be said about any subject. I'm not omniscient yet. ;)

EDIT: Found something written by Martin Hallmen.
EGSA.de - European Garter Snake Association (http://www.egsa.de)

[infernalis]

I am no genetics expert, very novice:o

Just figured that the genetics could crumble without diversity.

Certain recessive genes are more likely to surface in an inbreeding environment. (One would assume)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

very sorry to hear that.. my last litter was the same way. 10 dead, 10 alive... all thin and some with slightly smallish, oddly shaped heads. I had to put a few out before i left for my trip because they were refusing to eat AND drink, and were grotesquely skinny and weak. I hope the rest comes better for you!

[infernalis]

I had to put a few out before i left for my trip because they were refusing to eat AND drink, and were grotesquely skinny and weak.

Shanon, did you mean "down"

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

actually, I meant put a few out of their misery... which I somehow failed to type... but yes, down works as well...

[Stefan-A]

How about "kill"?

[KITKAT]

The dangers of inbreeding are not just the inheritance of deformities or genetic diseases.

A friend of mine wrote this for her students (to fully understand you must read all of the pages):

What are the general effects of inbreeding (http://cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbred.html)

Inbreeding as a way to select against genetic diseases: (http://cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/purge.html)

http://cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbrimmune.html

Note that the immune system weakening and the reproductive depression are not the actions of recessive genes, but rather, the lack of diversity from genetically same parents.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. :)

[GartersRock]

Stefan. I hate it when people say they "put their dog/cat/whatever down"... Hate it. Esp when they killed them for selfish reasons. Like they are moving. Grrr.... Just say you killed your dog for goodness sake!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Stefan. I hate it when people say they "put their dog/cat/whatever down"... Hate it. Esp when they killed them for selfish reasons. Like they are moving. Grrr.... Just say you killed your dog for goodness sake!

now people who do that are no good.

[GartersRock]

Oh I see it all the time... I actually witnessed someone bring in their gorgeous white Samoyed into the shelter and ask us to immediatly kill the dog (they said "put down" of course). Why? Because her white hair was getting on their new black furniture. Grrr....

[reptileparadise]

People who act like that 'should be put down'

[drache]

People who act like that 'should be put down'
yeah
in my mind I put them down all the time

[zooplan]

People who act like that 'should be put down'
It´s sad but a human attribute based on the facts:
That lots of people are too lazy to collect information before collecting animals,
too lazy to try harder when they recognize that keeping is not as easy as the´d guessed and
too lazy to find a better place for the animals:mad:

[Stefan-A]

So true, Udo.

A final thing might be that they are afraid of "losing face", by having to admit to others that they can't take care of an animal. It can definitely cause a person to hold on to an animal long after that person has lost the ability or the will to take care of it properly. Another result may be that they choose to put it down, in all secrecy, rather than having to explain to a potential new owner why they are getting rid of the animal. It's one reason people release their pets, too.

[zooplan]

What are the general effects of inbreeding (http://cc.ysu.edu/%7Ehelorime/inbred.html)

Inbreeding as a way to select against genetic diseases: (http://cc.ysu.edu/%7Ehelorime/purge.html)

http://cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbrimmune.html (http://cc.ysu.edu/%7Ehelorime/inbrimmune.html)



Good links!

Evolutions first step is to multiply.....

[zooplan]

the secomd step is to kill most individuals
but let only few multiply again

[Stefan-A]

Well, evolution is more of a result, not a cause. It's pretty much just about math. Every individual gets killed off at some point, but genes live on. If the gene had some function that improved the reproductive success of the individual (stronger immune system, better protection against predators etc.) to a point where it produces more offspring than the average, then that gene will become more common within the population. Even if everybody reproduces, some individuals are going to be better at it.

[zooplan]

From my point of view evolution is the process at all and there is no result that will last a long time.
The change in breeding or evolution is going faster when the (reassembling rate = the part of all offspring that reproduce again) is low.

[infernalis]

the secomd step is to kill most individuals
but let only few multiply again

That sounds distinctly like one of history's darkest moments.

Please don't be offended Udo:eek: It was the man, not the nation.

http://downwiththeinternet.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/hitler.jpg

[infernalis]

Even if everybody reproduces, some individuals are going to be better at it.


Yep, wanna see my child support bills??:D

[drache]

Yep, wanna see my child support bills??:D
just as long as you're keeping up with the upkeep . . .

[infernalis]

just as long as you're keeping up with the upkeep . . .

Oh no, their "cages are a mess"

They hate it when I clean their cages, I am as thorough as I am with my snakes.:eek::D:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Yep, wanna see my child support bills??:D
r/K selection theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_strategy) :D So you're an "r"? ;)

[infernalis]

r/K selection theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_strategy) :D So you're an "r"? ;)

Not really, more of an "O"

as in Oh no, not again:eek:

So far one has made it to adulthood, and reproduced again:rolleyes:

[anji1971]

Not really, more of an "O"

as in Oh no, not again:eek:

So far one has made it to adulthood, and reproduced again:rolleyes:


:D:D:D:D!!!!

[zooplan]

Thinking about all the years I still have to work for my chrildren I would guess humans should be a "K-specie" but what kind are our garters?