Breeder mice

[NetBSD]

Well im thinkin of breeding my own mice, i now have a Ribbon, Garter and a Ball Python plus there is another reptile show Dec. 6th so i know ill be getting another kind of snake. so this might save me a few bucks in the long run plaus i always liked mice.

so to make this simple whats all needed to start? i know i need 2 mice ofcourse but how should i go about picking them? i know from when i was a kid it was easier for 2 mice to get along if you got them when they were raised together but isnt there a worry about breeding a brother and sister? also will a 10 gallon tank be good enough for mice and will one of those hamster cages with the tubes be good? i would like my mice to be happy and have tubes to run thru if it will be good for them.

what steps need to be taken once i get some baby mice? do i just let mom take care of this? i kinda think i remember hearing the fathjer has to be removed from the babies.

does a mouse only mate in certain enviroments and time of year? are there any special steps to be taken to encourage mating? how long does it take for a female to give birth to young ones? how long till the young ones can be removed from the mother?

i know alot of questions but i wanna know the basics and maybe a little more before i get into this. i know how to care for them because i had them as a kid.

thanks in advance and hopefully some of you can chime in and point me in the right direction.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

a ten gallon could hold 1.3 or 1.4 mice. just normal adults should do, i think the temps supposed to be under 70F and the females will take care of the babies but if u want frozen pinkies just pop em in the freezer
KEEPING AND BREEDING FEEDER MICE FOR REPTILES (http://www.angelfire.com/al/repticare3/page21.html)

[Stefan-A]

It's recommended that you start with at least 3 mice; two females per male minimum. Inbreeding shouldn't really be a problem, but getting mice that aren't familiar with each other shouldn't cause problems if they're introduced properly. It might even be more important to not get females that have already established themselves as a group, because there's a chance that they'll kill the male. If they have done it, you should still be able to get around that by separating them and introducing them one at a time. A 10 gallon tank is big enough for a group. Wouldn't get them any toys, the "experts" say it will distract them from what's important. ;) Let mom take care of the babies. They'll be weaned in about a month and then you need to get them a cage of their own. I know some breeders wean them "manually" sooner than that, but that's nothing to worry about. The male doesn't necessarily need to be removed, but it's best to keep an eye on the females and see how they behave towards him. Mice will mate all year round, but they seem to prefer the same conditions (temperature, humidity) as we do. No special steps are needed, they'll take care of it themselves. You might want to add more proteine to their diet to keep them from eating babies. I think they're gravid for about 19-21 days, or something along those lines. There are a couple of threads about it here on the forum. I'm really just repeating what I remember from my own breeding attempt.

Beware of the smell.

[infernalis]

Here is a really good thread with a lot of mice stories and tips.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/3386-raising-feeder-mice-you.html

[brain]

I have been breeding mice and rats for some time and from that I’ll share.
Mice not recommended for the larger snakes (not enough protein) but great for smaller snakes. Yes, a 10 gallon is great for about 45 days then glean out the younger’s. After about the third or fourth “liter” (not clutch) start thinking about replacing the trio. I will keep a breeding trio for about 6 to 8 months or as they have smaller liters. Yes, a female with pups will be very defensive towards a new female, intro a new female in between liters. For the fighting I will watch for the aggression then spray mist with water the entire cage. This tends to calm all involved and the body scents will get mixed. I use Kaytee Small Animal Feed others tend to produce tumors in the mouse. Forti-Diet Mouse by Kaytee gets expensive on large scales. Both can be at PetCo or local feed store. In breading can occur after about three years so I tend to bring in new blood lines from time to time. Agreed if the female starts this cannibalism fed her off there is no correcting the. Why does it happen??? Your guess is as good as mine. I have heard it’s from the food but I have been using Kaytee for years and still the problem. Some have said it’s from the lack of water. I have a constant feed water system and still I have the problem of cannibalism.
Hope this helps. Oh yea be prepared for the urine smell or musk of the males
Michael:o

[adamanteus]

Thanks for the input, Michael... and welcome.:)

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard, Michael. :)

[infernalis]

Welcome, all good advice.....

However I still don't get the smell thing, Maybe we change the shavings too often??

Also I'd like to point out, as tempting as it may seem, avoid cedar chips.

They smell nice, but will cause respiratory problems, Your mice may be food, but why subject them to breathing ailments.

And I almost forgot, Mice can and will choke up the exercise wheel, then climb up on top of it, and leap out of the cage if it is not covered.

Since the mice are not "display" animals, I use tote boxes, drill some holes in the top for air...

[NetBSD]

thanks for all the info guys, most of it is what i expected but wanted to make sure. im probably going to hold off on the breeding for another month due to money being tight and i need to buy some stuff to start up, so if anyone wants to chime in some more be my guest, the more info the better.

[infernalis]

Here is an important piece of advice.

GROW THICK SKIN!

I love animals, all of them, more than a lot of humans I have encountered.

Mice will die, they will eat each other, kill babies, many will become "cute" and it will be harder for you to feed them to the snakes if you feel anything for them aside from respect for the food chain.

I only give names to the parent mice, no name is easier to feed than "Squeaky"

Don't handle them, keep your distance emotionally and otherwise, it will simplify things.

I have been raising mice for a while now, and just recently ordered mice from Rodent Pro, well I separated the mice and reduced the breeding... WHY?

ordering 400+ mice from rodent pro is cheaper, easier and they are already dead....

Still have 5 totes going, just a lot less reproducing.

You already showed us you have a heart by trying so hard to save little pinky.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/stuff/2mice.jpg

[NetBSD]

Here is an important piece of advice.

GROW THICK SKIN!

I love animals, all of them, more than a lot of humans I have encountered.

Mice will die, they will eat each other, kill babies, many will become "cute" and it will be harder for you to feed them to the snakes if you feel anything for them aside from respect for the food chain.

I only give names to the parent mice, no name is easier to feed than "Squeaky"

Don't handle them, keep your distance emotionally and otherwise, it will simplify things.

I have been raising mice for a while now, and just recently ordered mice from Rodent Pro, well I separated the mice and reduced the breeding... WHY?

ordering 400+ mice from rodent pro is cheaper, easier and they are already dead....

Still have 5 totes going, just a lot less reproducing.

You already showed us you have a heart by trying so hard to save little pinky.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/stuff/2mice.jpg


oh yeah i have a heart, but when it comes to a snake eating you gotta do it or buy pre killed ones. the only reason i tried saving pinky is because i couldnt see killing a baby mouse if it wasnt going to be used. i am hoping i do not grow attatched and i think i wont but who knows. ill give it a try once ort twice and if i find myself growing attatched im going to have to stop breeding and just fork out the cash for mice.

[Aundrea]

Well all I gotta say is I give you guys 2 thumbs up!! I just couldnt breed mice and rats. I have a BIG heart and just would feel sorry for them babies. I would want to keep them all as pets :eek: Soooo thats why I am gonna order from Rodentpro lol. :D But good luck to your mice breeding project. I hope it all goes well :D

[GartersRock]

It's hard... I am about to have to feed off my favorite 4 week old supposed to be future breeder gorgeous siamese dalmation rat due to her having megacolon, a fatal non curable crap. *cries* So not only will you have to feed. But sometimes even your breeders will have to be fed off due to problems... :(

[infernalis]

So sorry to hear that Amanda.

If you recall "Cinnamon" (the brown one) was terribly ill in that picture, the next morning my little cinnamini was really in a bad way, could not stand to see her suffer.

I gave her to Chomper and walked away:(

And so it was with "Skull" "Blondie" "Hopper" and some others...

And I must already feel an attachment to the colony, since every one of my critters will now eat F/T.

[Lori P]

It's hard... I am about to have to feed off my favorite 4 week old supposed to be future breeder gorgeous siamese dalmation rat

I MUST see these markings! Got any pics??

I'm sorry you have to feed her off. :(

[GartersRock]

Thats so sad Wayne... :(
And Lori. I will try and get pics. I haven't fed her off yet. *cries*

[Lori P]

I'm sorry. That was really insensitive of me!!! Don't take pics!!!! Forgive me.....

[GartersRock]

Oh no no no, it's ok. Don't worry about it! I wanted to record her colors anyway. :( As well as the swelling from the disease.

[Lori P]

Megacolon... I'll have to look that up. Is it common in rats?

[GartersRock]

It's relatively common in high white gene rats. It is spread genetically. Ah wait! You do horses right? It's pretty similar to lethal white foal syndrome. But they don't die as quickly.

[Lori P]

I once had a dog with megaesophagus. Same concept, different end. Had to feed him a liquid diet, and he had to stand with his feet up on the counter for the food to be pulled down to his stomach. It was pretty crazy.

[GartersRock]

I once had a dog with megaesophagus. Same concept, different end. Had to feed him a liquid diet, and he had to stand with his feet up on the counter for the food to be pulled down to his stomach. It was pretty crazy.

Wow. :( If that happened to one of my dogs that would be so hard. :( How long did he live if you don't mind me asking?

[Lori P]

Until I euthanized him... because it was soooo difficult. I gave him the best time I could, but, it really was a huge undertaking. He was a border collie... I'd found him chained out behind a farmer's barn when I went to get hay, just a total unbelieveable skeleton. The guy had no idea what was wrong with him, had basically chained him back there to die. :-( I guess I had him maybe 4 or 5 months... he did more than double his body weight. But with so many other animals to care for, I just literally ran out of steam with this guy. One of those animals I'll always feel I failed... because I chose to euth him for my own convenience. Adam was his name. Some day I'll have to face him again and try to explain to him why I gave up.....

[Topaz]

Here's a link about megacolon:Zen-Rats - Megacolon - genetik og arvelighed (http://www.zen-rats.dk/zen-rats/mc.asp)

So sorry about your little rat. This is why we don't breed our own feeders...it's still hard for me to watch the b/f feed his python rats. It doesn't bother me as much with mice, though.

[GartersRock]

Until I euthanized him... because it was soooo difficult. I gave him the best time I could, but, it really was a huge undertaking. He was a border collie... I'd found him chained out behind a farmer's barn when I went to get hay, just a total unbelieveable skeleton. The guy had no idea what was wrong with him, had basically chained him back there to die. :-( I guess I had him maybe 4 or 5 months... he did more than double his body weight. But with so many other animals to care for, I just literally ran out of steam with this guy. One of those animals I'll always feel I failed... because I chose to euth him for my own convenience. Adam was his name. Some day I'll have to face him again and try to explain to him why I gave up.....

Sorry to hear that had to happen. :( I am sure it was a super tough decision....

[jitami]

Until I euthanized him... because it was soooo difficult. I gave him the best time I could, but, it really was a huge undertaking. He was a border collie... I'd found him chained out behind a farmer's barn when I went to get hay, just a total unbelieveable skeleton. The guy had no idea what was wrong with him, had basically chained him back there to die. :-( I guess I had him maybe 4 or 5 months... he did more than double his body weight. But with so many other animals to care for, I just literally ran out of steam with this guy. One of those animals I'll always feel I failed... because I chose to euth him for my own convenience. Adam was his name. Some day I'll have to face him again and try to explain to him why I gave up.....

Lori, that's so very sad... you can't beat yourself up over this, though. Adam understood... he was a border collie for goodness sake... he knew how much you loved and cared for him. You gave him the dignified departure that he deserved, happy and healthy, which was probably more than he had ever had :( I have a friend who's dane developed adult onset mega and it was a never ending battle. He eventually passed away from complications of pneumonia. As you know it's nearly impossible to get them to not occasionally aspirate their food. He had been on numerous long term courses of antibiotics, but still couldn't be saved. If I'm remembering correctly he made it less than a year, even with her doing everything she could. Puppies can sometimes outgrow mega, but in an adult their chances are so slim even with wonderful owners doing everything possible for them. You did not let Adam down and he will someday greet you with a big happy grin, wagging tail, and full tummy...

[Garter_Gertie]

Hey, 'Ster... I wish I could do something besides blabber words that won't do poo to help. I'm sorry you hurt. I'm sorry you have to lose someone you care about.

But, I think you're one special woman and really fantastic. You believe in the food chain and can understand it - even with those you love.

I can't do that. I cannot/could not do what you propose to do. I can't do it.

You're strong and savvy.

Hugs to you. I can, I think, appreciate your tears and pain. I do wish it could be different...

((((('Ster))))

[Hornets23]

Lori, from what I have seen in my short time here, you do SO much good for so many critters! Please dont beat yourself up over adam. I am SURE that you gave him love and affection and a good life that he wouldnt have had otherwise. It is the hardest choice to ever have to make but I think somehow we just know when ending things is really the best thing we can do for them. It is probably the worst feeling ever and still we know. You are only human and its not fair to expect more from yourself than that. I dont think you failed at all. You provide so many animals a chance when they wouldnt have had one before. I think thats awesome.

[GartersRock]

Hey, 'Ster... I wish I could do something besides blabber words that won't do poo to help. I'm sorry you hurt. I'm sorry you have to lose someone you care about.

But, I think you're one special woman and really fantastic. You believe in the food chain and can understand it - even with those you love.

I can't do that. I cannot/could not do what you propose to do. I can't do it.

You're strong and savvy.

Hugs to you. I can, I think, appreciate your tears and pain. I do wish it could be different...

((((('Ster))))

Thank you Gertie. *sniff* I wish it could be different too. :( RIP Scufflin'.... :(

[jitami]

Thank you Gertie. *sniff* I wish it could be different too. :( RIP Scufflin'.... :(

So sorry Amanda... didn't mean to overlook your little ratty baby earlier :(