Time for Brumation?

[Albert Clark]

Yes, why not a month old neonate thats been eating then stoped? Its a common thing this time of the year. I find it easier to brumate in that situation then to work against it. If i was in that situation thats what i would do. Ive been there

OK. However OP stated the neonate only stopped eating "for the past couple of days". That hardly seems enough time to even make a decision to brumate a animal so very young? Have any other options been tried such as giving the animal time to really become hungry, try other prey, scenting pinky parts. I know you have been there but brumation in this case seems like the extreme measure for a fragile, very young baby snake.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Is brumation some horrible thing that people are affraid of? If your in no hurry to put size on your snake then why not give it a cooling period? The days are starting to be shorter, temps are dropping. A cooling period is good for snakes

[guidofatherof5]

Is brumation some horrible thing that people are affraid of? If your in no hurry to put size on your snake then why not give it a cooling period? The days are starting to be shorter, temps are dropping. A cooling period is good for snakes

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

[Peterra]

Resilient little snakes when it comes to dealing with the cold (they seem able to brumate close too freezing):

"Bailey (1949) assessed survival atdifferent depths (6-24 in; 1 in. = 25.4 mm) in an artificiallyconstructed snake pit. He found that all snakes survived at adepth of 24 in., where the soil temperature never fell below-0.5"C, but mortality increased at the 18-in. depth, where thetemperature sometimes fell to - 1.5 "C. All snakes died at allshallower levels, where extended exposures to -2°C or lowerwere recorded (Bailey 1949) "

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...s-sirtalis.pdf

On a different note I just realized I misspelled brumate in a different way every time I wrote it.... Wow, there should be a special prize for that

[Peterra]

Another interesting read is the article linked below, what I got from it was the importance of hydration during brumation.


Effects of humidity, temperature, and submergence behavior on survivorship and energy use in hibernating garter snakes, Thamnophis sirtalis

Desiccation is likely an important factor influencing winter mortality rates of terrestrially hibernating reptiles; however, this notion has not been rigorously tested. Groups of eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) were matched for size and subsequently exposed to simulated hibernative conditions (5 or 12 °C, under different humidity regimes) during winter, for 165 days or until all group members expired. As garter snakes in some dens submerge during natural hibernation, an additional group was maintained in water at 5 °C. Snakes kept in air dehydrated and died (body water contents at death ranged from 62.1 to 67.8% of lean fresh mass), whereas snakes kept in water remained hydrated (median, 75.2%) and survived. Survival duration of air hibernators was inversely related to rate of mass loss, which in turn was strongly influenced by ambient humidity and temperature. Dehydration accounted for most of the mass lost in all air hibernators; however, owing to higher rates of nutrient consumption, mass loss was significantly greater in snakes kept at 12 °C (36%) than in snakes kept at 5 °C (29%). Changes in fat body and liver masses showed that snakes kept in air at 12 °C used the most energy whereas those kept in water at 5 °C used the least. Submerged hibernation behavior has significant survival value because under these conditions snakes remain hydrated during winter. Also, because submerged snakes conserve more stored energy during winter, their reproductive success may be enhanced when mating activities resume in early spring

https://www.units.miamioh.edu/cryola...88_CanJZoo.PDF

[Peterra]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

Deaths from brumation (might provide an indication of the dangers of brumating):

Factors influencing the emergence of a northern population of Eastern Ribbon Snakes (Thamnophis sauritus) from artificial hibernacula

"Of the 15 T. sauritus that were placed in artificial hibernacula, 12 survived hibernation. Three out of five snakes in the hibernacula with a reversing thermal gradient survived hibernation; all snakes in the hibernacula where water level was raised survived; and four snakes out of five in the control hibernacula survived hibernation."

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/Z09-114

[smitty319]

Update:
Nicole is still not eating but her skin has started to have a shine to it so maybe she has to shed? Her eyes haven't turned blue yet though. I don't think it has anything to do with desiccation because her terrarium stays at a constant 80f and 60-70% humidity w/ a large water bowl

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

Oh really, how were the snakes kept?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Another interesting read is the article linked below, what I got from it was the importance of hydration during brumation.


Effects of humidity, temperature, and submergence behavior on survivorship and energy use in hibernating garter snakes, Thamnophis sirtalis

Desiccation is likely an important factor influencing winter mortality rates of terrestrially hibernating reptiles; however, this notion has not been rigorously tested. Groups of eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) were matched for size and subsequently exposed to simulated hibernative conditions (5 or 12 °C, under different humidity regimes) during winter, for 165 days or until all group members expired. As garter snakes in some dens submerge during natural hibernation, an additional group was maintained in water at 5 °C. Snakes kept in air dehydrated and died (body water contents at death ranged from 62.1 to 67.8% of lean fresh mass), whereas snakes kept in water remained hydrated (median, 75.2%) and survived. Survival duration of air hibernators was inversely related to rate of mass loss, which in turn was strongly influenced by ambient humidity and temperature. Dehydration accounted for most of the mass lost in all air hibernators; however, owing to higher rates of nutrient consumption, mass loss was significantly greater in snakes kept at 12 °C (36%) than in snakes kept at 5 °C (29%). Changes in fat body and liver masses showed that snakes kept in air at 12 °C used the most energy whereas those kept in water at 5 °C used the least. Submerged hibernation behavior has significant survival value because under these conditions snakes remain hydrated during winter. Also, because submerged snakes conserve more stored energy during winter, their reproductive success may be enhanced when mating activities resume in early spring

https://www.units.miamioh.edu/cryola...88_CanJZoo.PDF

This is how people brumate their garters. Theyll give them a dry substrate and a water bowl and throw them in a fridge. Many find their garter snake living in the water bowl.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

You have the Evolution and Ecology book dont you Steve. Go read the last paragraph on hibernation on page 113.