Sick Garter

[joeysgreen]

I don't see any literature on Sodium tripolyphosphate toxicity. It might be a bit of a jump to the conclusion, not saying that it's wrong.

It's of course to late if not yet done, but a post-mortem with histology would have been the ideal means of getting answers. If Na TPphosphate was a major concern, target tissues could also be saved for testing; the pathologist would probably have to research methodology on that one.

I like the advice for dietary variety, but also like to suggest live fish if a good captive bred source can be found and/or a relevant deworming protocol being in place. If I'm not mistaken, thiamine deficiency is primarily a concern with frozen fish.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

If I'm not mistaken, thiaminase content depends on the species of fish not the f/t status.

[joeysgreen]

I wanted to double check my facts on this. It is rather difficult to cite as there appears to be a lot of handed down information, even in textbooks. Even after I've typed this post and am editing it I came across a paper from 1945 that is rather contradictory to what I'm about to say... I'll continue to look into it further. Nonetheless the primary problem concerning thiaminase is indeed with frozen fish. While I don't disagree there may be species variation, both thiamin and thiaminase seem to be essential components to fish physiology. This means that all fish contain both. Discussion on species variation has actually been more concerning levels of fat's and vitamin E concerns... another topic altogether but variety and ensuring food has no degree of being rancid solves it). It's even in the same paragraph as thiamin deficiency in the first edition of Mader, Reptile Medicine and Surgery.

What happens to cause thiamin deficiency? It has been described as the enzyme thiaminase still being active even with the fish being frozen. Thus while you think you have preserved the animal in the freezer, time sees thiamin levels continue to fall. Degradation of other vitamins (vitamin C is a good example) in frozen foods appears to be well documented. Thiamin deficiency is a commonly discussed problem in wildlife and zoo medicine as there is a plethora of commonly kept piscivorous species like seabirds, marine mammals, of course gartersnakes, other fish etc. Thiamin supplementation is common practice, especially where frozen fish is the only means to sustain a giant appetite (we had a 14lb pelican that ate 50 fish every day, I can't imagine what a 400lb sea lion would eat!). For instances where supplementation isn't desired, fresh, or fresh frozen fish is the best recommendation. Thiamine is rarely supplemented in non-piscivorous species because it is found in adequate quantities in nearly any food both vertebrate and vegetation. So the recommendation for variety is a solid one for species that are less specialized in their feeding behavior.

Ian

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Years ago when i first got into garters i bought some tilapia and my nice new fat little healthy babies started dropping like flies after eating it all of them died within a day or 2 and i lost around 20 babies so i googled it and found that others were having the same problem and tilapia is low in toxins/heavy metals and is thiaminase free which should be great for garters so the fish shouldn't have been the problem. Then myself and others found out that the only common denominator was that the fish was treated with sodium tripolyphosphate which is a chemical that garters don't have in their diet in the wild and from what i understand high amounts of sodium can cause renal kidney failure. It was my falt for trying to feed them fish from the supermarket, but it was affordable and easy to acces so i thought it would be ok. I only use nightcrawlers and mice parts to start my babies off now and my succes rate is around 95% with babies. I will never use fish in my collection unless it is a last resort or a special treat and then it will be fresh frozen thawed fish.

i don't see any literature on sodium tripolyphosphate toxicity. It might be a bit of a jump to the conclusion, not saying that it's wrong.

It's of course to late if not yet done, but a post-mortem with histology would have been the ideal means of getting answers. If na tpphosphate was a major concern, target tissues could also be saved for testing; the pathologist would probably have to research methodology on that one.

I like the advice for dietary variety, but also like to suggest live fish if a good captive bred source can be found and/or a relevant deworming protocol being in place. If i'm not mistaken, thiamine deficiency is primarily a concern with frozen fish.

Ian

[joeysgreen]

Blue, that is some really strong anecdotal evidence; unfortunately while it's very much worth the warning flags, it leaves more questions than answers. Many times there is still an unknown link leaving the originally blamed compound being the "red herring". For such topics, it all begins with stories such as yours. Then case studies are written up by veterinarians (or academia should someone be interested in directly pursuing it) as they document suspect/confirmed cases of toxicity. A solid link is not made until toxicology studies are done; if they ever are.

On another note, there is a difference between free and bound sodium. It is quite possible that the tripolyphosphate ion has a much stronger attachment to the sodium ion than say, the chloride found in table salt. I can't say one way or another. Nonetheless, sodium is found everywhere and an essential ion throughout the body. Healthy kidneys excrete sodium without problem. A high sodium diet is generally a concern for long term heart health. With kidneys, it's usually protein to blame. With all this said, you certainly do not want to be feeding fish that has been salted!

[snipstedy]

Their is something wrong with my T. Sauritus that seems similar. I though that it had ( and still could be the case ) gone in to brumation b/c while I had went out of town for four days their was a record temp drop here. The temp dropped from around 82 degrees all the way down to 20 overnight!!. I had the heat 150 watt heat emitter on all the way as usual and her pad on. Its back warm again and when I got back she was laid out in the middle of the tank with her head near the water dish completely sleeping or whatever. She has a wrinkle look to her then and still does after a few days have went by but since yesterday off and on she has been awake but just laying still. in the middle of the tank (usualy she hides). I touched her a second ago and she moved around to the other side of the tank and seemed stiff in places. When they go into full brumation do they get stiff and wrinkly?

I've only been feeding tilapia of which she just ate some before she's been looking sick. I had bought a fresh new filet that had never been frozen from the super market. every other dish or so I sprinkle the calcium powder on her food. I think its probably best to bring in for a vet visit. I turned up the heat b/c I read somewhere while back that it could be good for the imune system.Any idea as to what it could be? thanks

[d_virginiana]

Fish isn't the safest food and IMO should only be used as an occasional treat or for snakes that refuse to eat anything else, but if your temps got down to 20 I think that's probably where your problems are coming from in this case, not the fish. You may want to start a new thread about this though so you'll get more views and people will realize it's a new problem.

[snipstedy]

I think I will soon as I get the chance...I thought it over and after watching her I noticed her to be hanging out near the dish alot which is rare so I started misting her and it seems she is completely dehydrated. I think her other dish was too tall and she didn't know it had water in it so I'v been misting her constantly and she has been drinking every drop. I put a big pool of water and put a hide over the pool (low to surface)so she will spend time at. I also put an extra dish. She's been drinking from the pool and her dish.

She is stiff and sort of locked up through out much of her neck all the way to her tail in various places. She gets around the tank but I don't know how severe the damage is.

[d_virginiana]

Keep us updated. Also, a picture/video may be helpful.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I agree that there is not enough testing to prove anything on this matter and that this just raises more questions and I'm not a scientist/Herpetologist by no means, but I have been keeping and breeding reptiles for over 20 years and I have enough common sense not to feed fish treated with sodium tripolyphosphate after losing all of my babies and witnessing others losing all of their babies even one of the Mods on here lost a lot of babies to this. It's not worth the risk to me to lose all of my precious gems with all the other food sources out here so I try to warn others of this risk to help them from going through what we all went through. ( If you're gonna use fish only use a fresh safe fish, nothing from the supermarket) when I sell babies I recommend others that buy my babies to only use nightcrawlers and mice with maybe a little treat of fresh fish on occasion as I've had my best success that way and I only want the best for my animals. (I would think that vitamin b deficiency would take more than one meal of fish to show up so until further testing is done I would assume that this was due to the sodium tripolyphosphate because it really appeared that they were all poisoned.) Bottom line is for the past few years using nightcrawlers and pinky parts mixed together I've had the best results on raising up my babies and once they are big enough they are fed hairless mice as a staple with a nightcrawler or 2 as a treat on a occasion, with the exception of some fresh fish or guppies as a last resort for none feeders so why change anything when they are doing so good.

Blue, that is some really strong anecdotal evidence; unfortunately while it's very much worth the warning flags, it leaves more questions than answers. Many times there is still an unknown link leaving the originally blamed compound being the "red herring". For such topics, it all begins with stories such as yours. Then case studies are written up by veterinarians (or academia should someone be interested in directly pursuing it) as they document suspect/confirmed cases of toxicity. A solid link is not made until toxicology studies are done; if they ever are.

On another note, there is a difference between free and bound sodium. It is quite possible that the tripolyphosphate ion has a much stronger attachment to the sodium ion than say, the chloride found in table salt. I can't say one way or another. Nonetheless, sodium is found everywhere and an essential ion throughout the body. Healthy kidneys excrete sodium without problem. A high sodium diet is generally a concern for long term heart health. With kidneys, it's usually protein to blame. With all this said, you certainly do not want to be feeding fish that has been salted!