Thiaminase

[Mandi0284]

I went to petsmart today looking for frozen silversides. I found them and one of the workers asked me what i was feeding. I told her i had a young garter snake who was feeding on mostly fish.....which seem to be his prefered food. he will eat worms, but with a lot of coaxing and scenting.

Anyway she asked me if i wanted goldfish. i told her i had been advised to stay away from goldfish as feeders for garters. she told me that their fish were parasite and chemical free.

i was wondering what is Thiaminase?
how does it affect the fish and thus make them toxic to our serpent companions?

[Steveo]

It's an enzyme that breaks down thiamine, which is otherwise known at vitamin B1. I'm not sure what function it has in fish biology, but it causes a B1 deficiency in snakes. In humans, a B1 deficiency is the cause of the disease known as beriberi.

[Invisible Snake]

In snakes I believe thiamanese causes a neurological disorder, causing them to have convultions etc. and eventually death.

[katach]

Thiaminase also had nothing to do with the breeding or condition of the fish. It is naturally occurring in the fish.

[guidofatherof5]

Thiaminase also had nothing to do with the breeding or condition of the fish. It is naturally occurring in the fish.

Agreed. You also can not compensate for thiaminase (feed more B1).
It is a horrible death for snakes to suffer.

[ConcinusMan]

Agreed. You also can not compensate for thiaminase (feed more B1).

It's a slippery slope. You cannot possibly know how much thiaminase is present in the snake, and therefore, you cannot know how much B1 to give the snake to counteract it. It would be like balancing a "teeter-totter" on the head of a pin. On the one side is thiaminase. On the other is B1. A little too much on either side is bad and the balance is lost, the snake dies.

Another problem is, you can feed thiaminase to a garter for years and the damage to the nervous system can be cumulative. In other words, by the time you see any symptoms, it might already be too late to do anything about it.

And that sort of addresses Neil's question. Yes, some snakes might be more or less vulnerable to disease from the enzyme, and whether disease appears or not, can be related to how much is ingested, the peak amount in the snake, the ratio of B1 vs thiaminase ingested, at what stage of life the imbalance occurs, and the cumulative effects of that balance over the lifetime of the snake.

Have a healthy snake that has been ingesting it for several years? So what? Doesn't mean it's not harmful. It's not too late to cut that enzyme out of the diet. I don't know of any snake that's going to drop dead because it ate goldfish or rosies for a week or even a few months. Best just to avoid thiaminase altogether if at all possible. The potential for the disease is there, and that's enough to warrant avoiding it.

I don't know of any case where eating bacon or smoking a few cigarettes in your lifetime is going to make a person automatically drop dead overnight either, but consume enough of it, for long enough, and you'll surely increase your risk of dying young of heart disease. Get it?

It's just plain bad for them. Anything can be poison. You just have to consume enough of it.

[Mandi0284]

Good to know. I dont like goldfish anyway lol.

She told me that the fish in the store were Thiaminase free and that they breed out stuff like that to make them safe. I know that that is not the case. I understand wanting to make sure the other customers feel that the fish are safe, but i guess not a lot of people know much about garter snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Good to know. I don't like goldfish anyway lol.

Like, dislike, doesn't matter. Many of our snakes "like" goldfish just fine. Doesn't matter. Some people like opiates, skydiving, war, drilling for oil, cutting themselves, eating raw fish, and being shot at. I like bacon, beef steak, ****************, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, and deserts. Doesn't mean it's good for our health. Doesn't mean we should just consume without regard to our health. I don't like hominy. Doesn't mean I shouldn't eat it. It's probably good for me.

Need I go on about likes and dislikes?

I know you were just "LoL" about it but I thought I would clear the air about "like & dislike".

She told me that the fish in the store were Thiaminase free and that they breed out stuff like that to make them safe.

She likely told you what she thought you wanted to hear so you would buy the fish. Even if you decided against buying said fish, it is of no consequence. In other words, buy it, I win. Don't buy it, I don't lose anything.

I know that that is not the case. .

No, you don't really know anything about it and that's what they're counting on.

I understand wanting to make sure the other customers feel that the fish are safe

Well, there you go. Do I really need to spell it out?

Bottom line is, we don't know fully the impacts of thiaminase containing fish. We don't know the levels of thiaminase in everything we feed to our snakes. We only know that this has been a source of misery, death, and illness in snakes in the past. We also only know (so far) that it doesn't hurt a damn thing to avoid feeding this to our snakes.

For now, we go with what information we have. We know that certain fish contain significant levels of thiaminase. We know that thiaminase can have serious consequences. Isn't it wise to just avoid those known sources of thiaminase for now?

Keep in mind you're looking at a guy who fed his snakes goldfish over the years, but only "in a pinch" and those snakes lived an extraordinarily long life. Still, there is cause for concern.

When I did that, the thiaminase issue was only just being discovered.

If we are overly concerned and avoid it, then no harm done. If we are complacent about it, well ****, just go ahead and stuff your snakes with goldfish every day and see what happens.

I've had a bit of time to look at the content in the link that Stefan provided. I know it's time consuming, but I suggest that if this thiaminase issue is on your mind. Go ahead and read.

http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%2...02MODIFIED.pdf

Don't take anything as "fact". Just get informed.

[thamneil]

I think there was probably a more suitable thread to put this in but I wasn't able to dig it up. I have a question about feeding thiaminase containing fish to your snakes.


Ive been researching Nerodia lately, and many of the photos and articles I come across portray the snakes eating bullheads. These catfish are a confirmed thiaminase carrier. Do you think that as part of a varied diet, thiaminase containing fish are ok? Or is it possible that Nerodia is more tolerant to the enzyme?

[infernalis]

It's not poison.

In other words, if your snakes need food, and all you can get is some Rosy reds, then go ahead.

It's long term, continual feeding of thiaminase rich fish that will lead to damage one day down the road.

Wild snakes (and other reptiles) don't reference books or post on forums prior to eating, so if a small bullhead or catfish showed up, it will get ate.