hey shannon thanks for the info, i figured they were more of a challenge than garter snakes, thats awesome, minus the one that you lost, and i thought they would be rather expensive, i have come accross three before at shops i have absolutely no idea why i didnt purchase them there but it happens, ill try my best to find them, i did a loong time ago see someone advertise them on kingsnake.com but i have not seen any on there since and that was five years ago, i guess i'll just have to keep my eyes peeled, and if you ever have eggs later on....I'm In lol lol, but i'm sure they were worth the 400 though, they are quite beautiful, i've always wanted natrix natrix, and natrix maura since i was a young boy after watching pbs and i saw one eating a toad on there i was like WHOOOAAA haha