People against wild caught Garters

[Millinex]

You found a rattler, and you're more worried about your mom killing you?

I live with her, she is against me keeping one in the house/on the property, or I would have kept it. However in the field I am confident in my ability to handle it, for now I was forced to simply move him off the trail and enjoy him for about 45 minutes, hopefully he is still there when my gf and I head out there in a few mins so we can move him far away from the trail and get some good pictures.

Rattlers aren't as bad as a lot of people claim, and are one of the easiest hots to handle IMO, would have been a great snake to keep though!

[MasSalvaje]

Rattlers aren't as bad as a lot of people claim, and are one of the easiest hots to handle IMO, would have been a great snake to keep though!

Lets worry about the original can of worms before we open a second.

This debate will go on forever, and to be honest I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I have my own oppinion on the matter based on my own experiences, as does everyone else.

Ultimately there is no way to prove that a WC specimen will/will not have a negative impact on a population. There is too much data on both sides to come to any scientificly credible conclusion, so we each need to make up our own minds on the matter and accept others views.

To the original poster; Make up your own mind on the matter. You are the only one that knows for sure if you have the means to properly care for the animal as well as put up with any heat that may come your way for so doing. If you can't give the snake a good home or you can't deal with the opposite view's take on the matter you should certainly let it go.

-Thomas

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This is a reoccurring topic, one that I feel should continue to keep our ethical approaches in check. We may not all agree about the best strategies to keep wild populations wild and healthy, nor can we all come up with perfect reasons to justify our acquisition of wild-caughts. This forum is great, in that we can agree to disagree and remain civil. Yes, there may exist some hypocrisy in some of our excuses. At least we are trying to educate ourselves! For every controversial, well-thought out decision in our acquisitions, remember there are tons of idiots and ruthless small children who never give a thought.

In regards to conservation, I am apt to lean towards Stefan's understanding of potential impacts on populations. Sure relocation beats decapitation or being buried under the dozer, but relocation is very iffy, and does not guarantee the survival of a released animal or members of the existing predator complex residing in the locality of the release. Keeping a W/C for the same reason one might want to relocate the snake is an issue whereby we may never obtain closure... I have seen too many arguments trying to justify keeping W/C's, and my own reasons skirt contradiction, since I too keep W/C's.

My keeping W/C's is for the sole purpose of research. Sure, I enjoy the animals, or I wouldn't be studying them. I also understand that the observations I make and the notes I take will not necessarily give me the true picture of what is going on in the wild. Still, the information collected is valuable. If something new is learned, something that can actually find its way into scientific texts, then I personally feel justified. My interest with local species revolves around genetics and prey selection, and it my belief that this research is very helpful in understanding the local population dynamics of not just garters, but also garter predators and prey. I am also continuously perplexed by garter diversity and the possibility of hybridization in the wild (if indeed we'd like to call it that, or go the whole nine yards in trying to define what a "species" actually is). For all those who keep C/B's, such research might help explain some of the captive genetics. [Please don't confuse this research with C/B projects that try to mix species and create "Frankengarters"!]

For any of you who have watched the 2 "competing" documentaries that try to predict life on earth without the presence of humans (They've been aired the last year on the Science, History and other channels...), you should realize HUMANS are indeed the most detrimental species to the planet; we are the most invasive, intrusive, and yes, apparently we are worse than radiation! Chernobyl has witnessed returns in the counts of healthy red deer populations since people were forced to vacate the area... Okay, I'm going off on a tangent, but the point is - anything we do, whether for selfish reasons or even good-hearted one- will have an impact!

Once again, from a conservation standpoint, BE CAUTIOUS in any wild-collecting or relocating you might do! Amphibian populations are being threatened worldwide. You may have healthy garter populations in your neck of the woods today, but chytrid fungus could be around the corner tomorrow, ready to wipe out up to 80% of any affected ampibian species living there within the first year of its establishment. Oh no! That thought might give someone the impression we should snag a few garters to give the frogs a chance. Please, NO!

I have to state that I believe the world is going to S--T! Mother Earth is in a transitional phase where the S--T has indeed hit the fan, and things ARE going to change! It appears to me that many of the strategies park systems and Fish and Game are attempting may be mute; we're out there trying to save species by intervening [best justified when the problem was a result of human actions!], and in many cases we don't even think about whether or not a particular species is meant to survive. Mother Nature "doesn't care" if a species survives! Evolution after all is a ruthless affair, and the presence of any species is a wonderful novelty.

I work at Redwood National and State Parks. I spend a lot of time on the prairies combatting exotic vegetation. The fire crews also cut and burn firs and oaks to keep the forest from swallowing the prairies. These prairies have existed for about a 1000 years, and were originally maintained (via burning) by Native Americans in the area. In effect, man has been interfering with a natural process. These prairies would not exist without us, but since they have been around for so long, we are now continuing the burns so we can maintain all the animal and plant species that have adapted to living there. If we were to stop the burns, the gopher snakes, racers, mountain garters, the deer and elk, etc, etc might not be as plentiful as they are right now. Since we have have cattle ranchers neighboring the park, their is public fear about introducing wolves or other previously native predators to the park. Thus we may have large herds of elk, but their genetics are weak. The whole natural process has been tweaked to fit our often less-than-educated understanding of it.

So, how does this relate to W/C garters? Well, it's more of a vibe and feeling. The planet is "f----d", and we often don't have a clue as to how damaging our intentions may be, whether selfish or selfless!

So, keep showing your concern. At least WE are by talking about it! We may not find the solution, but hopefully we will attain a better sense of objectivity regarding the controversy.

Rambling again,

Steve

[jitami]

Nicely said, Steve. I enjoy your ramblings

[mustang]

i too keep wild snakes and like steven i enjoy rambling...but hate typing it

[PitGirl89]

I think theres a lot of very interesting information posted here already.

In my own personal case, because of where I live, its not possible to acquire a Garter from a breeder. It is illegal to breed and sell Garter snakes in captivity here in Quebec. Its hard to find good/reputable breeders when it comes to all animals, and I would rather not support someones income by buying a snake from them if I can't see first hand how they're kept.

[jamromhem]

There is alot of different things that play into this to make a single determination on what is right or wrong.

Take the situation that landed me with my pretty little checkered.

She was in my drained pool. The average person would have :
A) left her there. (which would have lead to her death now that the 40 consecutive 100+F days in a row have drained the rest of the water collected in the pool)

B) killed her.

C) call animal control that might or might not have killed her.

a most likely dead snake is less use to the wild than one that is caught allowed to bread in captivity and then releasing a potion of the young back into the wild at a better location.

I think if you are WCing and breading the WC snakes you should return some of what you got. That might make the difference from you still being able to find them next year. Just my thought.

If your not breading and saved the snake from death then let it enjoy the fact that it was allowed to live X number of years longer as it would have no impact on the local population dead or alive at your house.

While the released young may not survive neither does all wild born young, but atleast you gave them a chance to return to their natural population.

[ssssnakeluvr]

very well put Steve!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I think if you are WCing and breading the WC snakes you should return some of what you got. That might make the difference from you still being able to find them next year. Just my thought. While the released young may not survive neither does all wild born young, but atleast you gave them a chance to return to their natural population.

A noble thought, but C/B snakes from W/C parents ethically (and usually legally) should not or can not be released into the wild. There is no guarantee of success for the offspring, and the general reasoning concerns immunities, parasites, inherited preferential dietary behaviors, and environmental impact. Perhaps if you just caught a W/C mother, and she's about to pop, might I agree with releasing the babies immediately after birth in the same location where the mother was caught.

This is a classic example of how good intentions mess with the complex natural cycles of ecosystems.

[MasSalvaje]

A noble thought, but C/B snakes from W/C parents ethically (and usually legally) should not or can not be released into the wild.

This is a classic example of how good intentions mess with the complex natural cycles of ecosystems.

I know here in Utah it is illegal to release a snake that has been in captivity for any amount of time. A lot of people stretch that law by releasing a specimen a week or two later and to the exact same spot it was found.

If you are going to catch and keep a WC snake you need to be ready to care for it for the duration of its life and not use the excuse that because it is a WC it can be released at anytime.

-Thomas