Steve's Snake Observations

[guidofatherof5]

Here's one that has slipped by me until today. I've seen it a thousand times but never really saw it.
Here's what I'm talking about. When I open an enclosure my kids come out to see me. If my hands are in inside then they must be checked for food. If no food is found then they look into my eyes with this "where's the food" look. Most of us have seen it. It's an expression on the face. Mostly done with the eyes.
Why do they look us in the eyes/face? Why don't they just keep staring at the hands, that's where the food comes from.
It's just one of the little things that happens when we engage them but I never really saw it until today.
They are such interesting animals. I wish I knew what they were thinking.
It's just my opinion but I think there is more going on than just automated responses. Maybe I just spend too much time with them.

[gregmonsta]

100% Steve ... until we can actually communicate with animals the statement of them not being as aware/not having emotions/not having the relevant cognitive processing power is absurd in my eyes ... it's non-scientific to say otherwise all things are relative.

[Stefan-A]

Pick one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

Obviously snakes don't have the facial muscles to make expressions, especially not ones that are intended to be interpreted by humans.

We don't need to be able to communicate with them, either. It can be tested. We can find out which part of the brain does what job and we can find out whether a species has it and whether it's working on a specific individual.

As for the awareness thing, awareness is just a matter of gathering information and the ability to process it. Both can be tested.

[gregmonsta]

I don't believe you too much Disney as a child .... lol, I know ..... but I like to believe that despite that they still have emotional states

[guidofatherof5]

I don't believe you too much Disney as a child .... lol, I know ..... but I like to believe that despite that they still have emotional states

It is a lot more fun and I believe(can't prove anything) they do have more emotions than the basic survival package.

Stefan,
I wish you could spend some time on the Ranch and get to know a few of my buddies.

[Sonya610]

We don't need to be able to communicate with them, either. It can be tested. We can find out which part of the brain does what job and we can find out whether a species has it and whether it's working on a specific individual.

The testing is only as good as the testers, and we are pretty darn dense to say the least!

The poor development in birds of any brain structures clearly corresponding to the cerebral cortex of mammals led to the assumption among neurologists not only that birds are primarily creatures of instinct, but also that they are very little endowed with the ability to learn...This misconceived view of brain mechanisms hindered the development of experimental studies on bird learning .

EVOLUTION: ON THE EVOLUTION OF BIRD INTELLIGENCE

We now know that birds have a different brain structure but some are in fact HIGHLY intelligent and capable of problem solving.

How is it they were "stupid and instinctual animals" a few decades ago but are now considered to be far more intelligent? Who got smarter? Us or them?

Course it is always very convenient for humans to decide "this or that doesn't have feelings, it is not self-aware" because therefore you can do whatever you like to them! And in my mind it does come down to self-aware, on a spiritual level as well as a physical level.

[Stefan-A]

The testing is only as good as the testers, and we are pretty darn dense to say the least!

We're smart enough to test their intelligence and we're smart enough to take ourselves out of the equation.

How is it they were "stupid and instinctual animals" a few decades ago but are now considered to be far more intelligent? Who got smarter? Us or them?

Who thought that? Certainly not those who were studying them.

We've also been believing that animals are far more intelligent than they actually are since we were hunter-gatherers and it's only fairly recently that we've been able to lay those myths to rest by actually putting them through tests.

Course it is always very convenient for humans to decide "this or that doesn't have feelings, it is not self-aware" because therefore you can do whatever you like to them!

Convenient or not, there are people out there who are very keen to find out how things really are.

And in my mind it does come down to self-aware, on a spiritual level as well as a physical level.

What does that even mean? Spiritual?