A question about T. gigas

[mustang]

ya...

[kibakiba]

Wow, he is a beauty! I don't blame you for wanting to keep him, I would too! I love that orange-y stripe on him

[ssssnakeluvr]

orange stripe is more zaxanthus.... possibly mountain. I don't think it's a gigas....at that size his eyes would be bigger, would be a juvenile.... as garters get older, the eyes tend to be smaller in relation to head size...

[zooplan]

@Don Thats sounds like an educated guess!

Counting vertebral scale rows might give another hint,
two preoculars occur in all three species, two postoculars are described only for T.gigas.
There are not a lot of significant differences but the adult size.

[ConcinusMan]

As usual, my recommendation would have been: Don't intervene.

True. You should have just let the snake be. However, HOLY CRAP! GIMMIE THAT SNAKE!

That is definitely NOT a T. gigas.

@ Tendriana: That is a T. a. zaxanthus and I want it. PM me please. It will be worth your while.

Sorry guys, I really want it.

Here's another T. a. zaxanthus that is very stunning and I always admired this particular specimen:



More info on the species:

Thamnophis atratus zaxanthus - Diablo Range Gartersnake

[Tendriana]

Thanks everyone!

Kibakiba - Thank you - I agree, he's gorgeous! The little garters we used to find as kids down in southern california were never so colorful and pretty!

Don - Thanks for the info about eye size - good to know! I know the orange is often found in zaxanthus, but I've also read that you can find it on mountains and giants too (though on giants it's usually towards the northern end of their range, while the farther south giants have much less color.)

Zooplan - I want to count the verticals... but i'm still confused on exactly how to do it. Plus this snake is still super antsy and uncomfortable with being held, I don't want to stress him out by holding him down long enough to count.

ConcinnusMan - While at first I thought it was a zaxanthus as well, their range is NOT where I live - their range is much more towards the coast, whereas I live very close to the Sierras. Yes, there's a chance some stray zaxanthus's came all the way out this way. But I compared the zaxanthus vs. e. elegans vs. gigas Upper Labials and came to the conclusion that it's gotta be a elegans or gigas, definitely not Zax. My guy's 6th and 7th upper labials are enlarged - indicitive of elegans or gigas, but not zax. Also, zax internasals are longer than wide, and have pointed fronts... whereas my guy has wide non-pointed internasals, which again are elegans or gigas. Are you interested in zaxanthus in particular, or e. elegans as well? Your picture of a zax is BEAUTIFUL by the way!

[ssssnakeluvr]

with your info on the range, I would say mountain.... I think I have seen a pic or 2 with brighter orange stripes.... would love a couple for breeding my trio isn't quite breeding size and the orange isn't quite as bright, but still, they are awesome snakes!

[ConcinusMan]

ConcinnusMan - While at first I thought it was a zaxanthus as well, their range is NOT where I live - their range is much more towards the coast, whereas I live very close to the Sierras. Yes, there's a chance some stray zaxanthus's came all the way out this way. But I compared the zaxanthus vs. e. elegans vs. gigas Upper Labials and came to the conclusion that it's gotta be a elegans or gigas, definitely not Zax. My guy's 6th and 7th upper labials are enlarged - indicitive of elegans or gigas, but not zax. Also, zax internasals are longer than wide, and have pointed fronts... whereas my guy has wide non-pointed internasals, which again are elegans or gigas. Are you interested in zaxanthus in particular, or e. elegans as well? Your picture of a zax is BEAUTIFUL by the way!

I too, am aware of the range maps and saw that this could possibly be a T. elegans, (mountain garter) and I'm aware that if you're going by range maps, then the most likely candidate would be T. elegans based on the "sacramento area" locale where you found the snake.

So, now that we have collaborated, maybe it's safe to assume that it is a T. elegans (mountain garter) since you are close to the Sierra's. I've seen and caught plenty of T. gigas in the San Joaquin Valley to think that this is NOT a T. gigas. If it is, it's not very typical at all. The head shape, and eyes just don't quite fit.

And, no.. it doesn't matter to me what species it is since I have no plans to breed it. I simply find it to be an absolutely stunning natural garter snake morph. I don't care if it's a particular species or subspecies. I just know I like the look of it and would love to have it as part of my family. If you want to keep it, then of course, I support that, provided that it is not a T. gigas. If it is a T. gigas, then I suggest contacting local authorities for your final move regarding this snake so that the right thing can be done to return this snake to it's habitat.

Take your time and be sure of what it is. I'm just saying that I would really love to have it, T. elegans, or T. a. zaxanthus.

I am not far from "Mountain Garters" myself. Have you seen the Willamette Valley (Oregon) variation of the mountain garter? Simply stunning!

But yeah.. I can see where there would be confusion. T. elegans (mountain garter) subspecies:



Gorgeous snake!

[zooplan]

Zooplan - I want to count the verticals... but i'm still confused on exactly how to do it. Plus this snake is still super antsy and uncomfortable with being held, I don't want to stress him out by holding him down long enough to count.

Take a close up picture of the side/back, for the edge of the ventral shields to the vertebral stripe, than you´ll get all needed time for counting without stressing the snake.Both sides will have the same number of scale rows! Or put him in an empty glas tank and take a picture of the vent to count ventral shields and subcaudal scales.

[ConcinusMan]

Good advice. That's how it's done. Has anyone seen the "Willamette Valley" variation of the Mountain Garter Snake? Stunning! (pictured in the book "Reptiles of the Northwest")

I hope to have a pair someday.