New garter - I just couldn't help myself

[EasternGirl]

I never think of them as easterns...I think of them as a species in their own right. I don't think we even have them around here do we? But I mean, if you are going to call a red-spotted an eastern, then isn't a parietalis technically an eastern too...and a fitchi, and infernalis, etc. I mean they are all subspecies, right? Of the sirtalis? But when we say eastern...we are really referring to the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis, correct?

[ConcinusMan]

But when we say eastern...we are really referring to the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis, correct?

Yes. And when I say "red sided" I mean T. sirtalis parietalis. When I say "California Red sided" I mean T. sirtalis infernalis.

There's a lot of debate over the validity of subspecies altogether. Easterns and red sided are essentially the same snake if you take away the splitting them into subspecies. If you do that, then they are both just T. sirtalis.

[Stefan-A]

There's a lot of debate over the validity of subspecies altogether. Easterns and red sided are essentially the same snake if you take away the splitting them into subspecies. If you do that, then they are both just T. sirtalis.

What kind of debate, where?