New garter - I just couldn't help myself

[ConcinusMan]

Really? Parietalis? There's no red at all, or do parietalis not always have red sides? Although one of the others in the shop did have flecks of red, I didn't pick that one out because I'm pretty sure that one was female.

Parietalis was my first impression as well. They don't always have red, and the ones that don't, look just like that. Could very well be an eastern though. I'm still leaning toward parietalis though. I've seen group photos of them taken in Canada and they didn't have any red, or a few of them just had hints of red. They looked like your snake. Might be why they were labeled "northern". Many parietalis' from Canada get that label when they arrive overseas.

[chris-uk]

One of the others, which I didn't get because it looked "more female", did have some red flecks. Not a lot, but some. But I still went with Eastern because I read that Easterns sometimes show red between the scales.
I'm becoming convinced by the parietalis argument though, and if they were collected in Canada it would explain the erroneous "Northern" label.

[ConcinusMan]

Another example...

(Canada) Red sided. As you can see, many lack red. In some populations they appear brownish instead of black.

[EasternGirl]

The coloring between the scales on mine is black...but I don't know what the coloring would be on some of the browner looking easterns that I saw pics of from farther north. Perhaps they show some red in between the scales. I wish I could find a good, reliable book written about easterns.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, to confuse matters, a red spotted eastern can look more like a parietalis than an actual parietalis without the red. Hope that made sense. Even though the "northern" label is erroneous, it probably indicates where they came from, which would make them most likely parietalis'. I think it's common practice to raid the communal dens and ship them overseas in bulk, labeled as "northern" garter snake. More than half probably die during shipping but collecting great numbers at the Canadian dens ensures that at least some will survive the long trip.

[chris-uk]

I think it's common practice to raid the communal dens and ship them overseas in bulk, labeled as "northern" garter snake.

Now that makes my purchase feel more guilty.

[EasternGirl]

I never think of them as easterns...I think of them as a species in their own right. I don't think we even have them around here do we? But I mean, if you are going to call a red-spotted an eastern, then isn't a parietalis technically an eastern too...and a fitchi, and infernalis, etc. I mean they are all subspecies, right? Of the sirtalis? But when we say eastern...we are really referring to the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis, correct?

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry, wasn't meant to make you feel guilty. It was more of another point why I think it's a parietalis. It's a long trip. They need to find large numbers quickly, and ship in large numbers in order for some to make to market. Parietalis fits the bill. You're not the first European to show us a red sided that was purchased as a "northern"

It is a WC snake and probably hasn't been dewormed or anything. Keep that in mind.

[ConcinusMan]

But when we say eastern...we are really referring to the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis, correct?

Yes. And when I say "red sided" I mean T. sirtalis parietalis. When I say "California Red sided" I mean T. sirtalis infernalis.

There's a lot of debate over the validity of subspecies altogether. Easterns and red sided are essentially the same snake if you take away the splitting them into subspecies. If you do that, then they are both just T. sirtalis.

[Stefan-A]

There's a lot of debate over the validity of subspecies altogether. Easterns and red sided are essentially the same snake if you take away the splitting them into subspecies. If you do that, then they are both just T. sirtalis.

What kind of debate, where?