Breeding related snakes?

[prattypus]

It wouldn't be a good idea to call a liger its own species. Short recap is needed here. A tigon is a cross b/n a male tiger and a female lion; the crossing works, but cubs are always rejected by the lioness; she will not recognize them as her own. No evolutionary success story there -it's not meant to be (Actually, none of this would occur naturally b/n the 2 cats). A liger is the opposite cross: male lion, female tiger. In this case the mother tiger will accept the young and attempt to raise it. Speciation regarding both versions is ultimately doomed, as males born in both crossings are sterile; there would be no continuance of the line. This is really a partial hybrid, where the female offspring can only breed with one or the other of the 2 original species (thus reaffirming traits of one species or the other). Also, it is important to know that ligers have a shorter lifespan due to health complications that may be compared to those which killed Andre the Giant (I'm not a "wrestling" fam, but I liked the "Princess Bride".). Apparently male lions offer up some kind of growth hormone to the next generation, that is kept in check by something the lioness puts into the "recipe". Ligers do not get this hormone inhibitor from their tiger mother, and therefore never stop growing. Ligers may be called the largest big cat in the world. Unfortunately, their heart can't compensate for the continual increase in body volume. Most new complex animal species do not arise from hybridization. Sub-specific intergrades don't count, because subspecies are still the SAME species. In cases like these far-flung sub-specific intergrades might actually strengthen genetic integrity rather than weaken it. This however doesn't fair well when you are dealing with captive-bred specimens whose traits you wish to keep defined.

Steven

Just try saying that three times fast...

[Garter_Gertie]

I said what I said - and asked for Dekay's reasoning - because I believe - ONLY MY OPINION, here - that just because something is possible does not make it ethical.

Not even if it could occur in nature. And for that matter, do those two have known intergrades, where their territories cross?

Here's some painful ethics of years past...

Weimaraners. When my grandfather was breeding them in the '30s, they culled to keep the breed pure with only silvers. Today there are silvers and blues - or something like that. Now culling is a hard, painful thing to do. However, at the time, people were adamant about keeping the breed pure with only one color. And don't hit me with inbreeding to do so. They line and outbreed as necessary.

I could, should I desire, get females of different Thamo subspecies to breed with my boys. I can do it. But would it be ethical?

In my mind, no.

I see the corns; I see the corns crossed with the milks. Like...

What would happen IF these idiots did let their snakes loose because they couldn't care for them? A lack of ethics in breeding something such as snakes - vs dogs or cats one usually doesn't just let loose in the wild - would suggest to me those bozos would have no compunction in letting muddied snakes loose in the wild.

This has never been addressed here before - that possibility. It could happen. Actually, I'm willing to bet it probably has. People shrugging their shoulders, "What's the problem?" and letting snakes go.

And each and every one of those muddied, cross-bred snakes takes up room, food, territory of native snakes. They interbreed with our native snakes - the poor snakes don't know what they're doing! - and our native popoulation changes.

And NOT by natural selection, but by some bone-headed ******* being a bone-headed *******.

I'm not pointing fingers here. I'm voicing my worries about Xtreme Hogs, or Xtreme Garters.

Not all people are as ethical as we may tend to be. And it worries me no end. This is a topic of conversation that breaks my heart and so concerns me regarding what native animals we have.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I realize I got kind'a got het up - I didn't mean to offend. If I did, I'm sorry that's the way you took it.

But just because something is possible does NOT make it right.

Thanks for bearing with me.

I don't see anything wrong with what he stated; The Florida blue garter he's talking about is Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis. The only flame garters I know of are also Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis.
Also, with the Albino and melenistics (both sirtalis sirtalis in sake of this discussion) you'd get (I believe) melenistic babies that are heterozygous for amelenism. Or something like that.

[Garter_Gertie]

Just because Scott could do that, was it ethical? I don't think so.

And NY Easterns are not the same snake as VA Easterns. They're the same species/subspecies but they have evolved entirely differently based upon their locality.

If they were truly the same - same foods, same cover, same forage, et al, they would look the same.

They can't even intergrade.

scott bred a regular eastern of some morph to a florida blue eastern this year... don't remember what the male was though...

There's nothing wrong with what wayne suggested gertie, they are the same exact snakes, they just look different. It's like how you can have eastern garters from new york, and eastern garters from virginia. They may look different, but they are the same snake.

[mtolypetsupply]

Deb: What are you drawing?
Napoleon Dynamite: A liger.
Deb: What's a liger?
Napoleon Dynamite: It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

But what about the liger? Isn't that a separate species now, what with the magical skills and all?


Stephi

Okay, for everyone who took that seriously, I'm very sorry. I kinda figured my using "Napoleon Dynamite" as a reference, and my question about the magical skills would give it away as a joke.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Okay, for everyone who took that seriously, I'm very sorry. I kinda figured my using "Napoleon Dynamite" as a reference, and my question about the magical skills would give it away as a joke.

I enjoyed the humor, but I did perceive literally in regards "isn't a liger a new species?"

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Dogs are classed as a subspecies of Canis lupus, Canis lupus familiaris. That's after 15 000 years of reproductive isolation from the natural form and selective breeding. And it's still debatable whether or not it deserves that status.

There might be a lot of genetic quirks if you bred domesticated dogs with wolves, but I do believe the crosses are still viable in most cases. Size (LOL!) is always important! No, seriously, no female chihuahuas with male timber wolves! Sounds like "Let's do lunch! Oh, by the way baby, you Mexican hot water bottle, you....you're lunch!" (Yes it is believed they served that purpose for the Aztecs.)

No, the last I heard is that domesticated dogs, despite their looks, adaptations, dispositions, etc. have a "hard-wired" gene that screams:
"I am wolf. I want to look like a wolf! Or at least a Cape Hunting Dog or Dingo or something...." If humans disappeared, it is believed that dogs would eventually revert back to a wolf-like form. Both natural selection and ancient restrictive controller genes would whip this animal back into a near original state. Most little breeds would become lunch if this were to happen (unless the dachshunds all run for badger dens!).

One thing we're learning in evo-devo (evolutionary development) is that the survival of added mutations (changes) within the realm of natural selection are actually limited by dominator genes. These genes are vital to keep us who (what) we are; otherwise mutation could be rampant in what might normally be a fit population. If ya don't need a change because the environment you are in is ideal, change is not going to help the population.
These genes are actually often responsible for many species' extinctions during sudden environmental changes, simply because the controlled development won't allow mutations fast enough for the change in habitat.

I don't mean to be all wordy and stuff! Thanks for al the praise regarding these long posts. Feel comforted in knowing that for any of you who often feel overwhelmed with the info I write..... I am in a similar boat when reading and trying to understand the doctorate texts I peruse, which often contain terminology over my head. We're all learning together. These posts also actually help me study.

Steven

[Stefan-A]

No, seriously, no female chihuahuas with male timber wolves! Sounds like "Let's do lunch! Oh, by the way baby, you Mexican hot water bottle, you....you're lunch!" (Yes it is believed they served that purpose for the Aztecs.)

Actually, that seems to apply to practically every dog, not just the small ones. They don't behave like wolves, they don't look like wolves, they don't communicate like wolves and they don't smell like wolves, so dogs almost consistently end up as lunch.

No, the last I heard is that domesticated dogs, despite their looks, adaptations, dispositions, etc. have a "hard-wired" gene that screams:
"I am wolf. I want to look like a wolf! Or at least a Cape Hunting Dog or Dingo or something...." If humans disappeared, it is believed that dogs would eventually revert back to a wolf-like form. Both natural selection and ancient restrictive controller genes would whip this animal back into a near original state. Most little breeds would become lunch if this were to happen (unless the dachshunds all run for badger dens!).

Well, natural selection is going to weed out those that can't find a niche and the closest one is going to be that of wolves, possibly foxes in some cases, and these are already better adapted to that kind of life.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, natural selection does have the "final say" in the elimination process.

And yes, most breeds of dogs probably would pass as lunch! When I grew up in San Diego, my parents made me feed the coyotes (my parents: war-torn children from WWII Germany - didn't believe in wasting anything, esp. table scraps), despite my protests and neighbors' concerns. During this time I once witnessed a "Coy dog" (coyote/familiaris hybrid - Shepard influence I believe - largest "coyote" I have ever seen!) chasing our neighbor's ruthless bloodhounds. The bloodhounds would often chase the smaller coyotes as well as females that may have been in heat. One of them never made it back over the fence, so it is surmised the coyote pack may have had a group picnic here. My question is: How did the shepard get it on without being attacked? - perhaps a lonely female coyote?

[ssssnakeluvr]

Just because Scott could do that, was it ethical? I don't think so.

And NY Easterns are not the same snake as VA Easterns. They're the same species/subspecies but they have evolved entirely differently based upon their locality.

If they were truly the same - same foods, same cover, same forage, et al, they would look the same.

They can't even intergrade.

they are the same species....just different colors....as humans are the same species, different locations and different colors.....just because they are different colors due to location doesn't make them different species....

[infernalis]

Steven, Out here where I live Coy/Dog hybrids are a PROBLEM..

People drop unwanted dogs all over in the country, so even if only one or two of those "prove themselves" and are accepted into the pack, breeding is almost inevitable.

The D.E.C. stocked the coyotes a few years ago to control deer....

Now they want to stock WOLVES to control the coyotes....

Why not just stock the woods with armed men