5 gal. tank?

[ConcinusMan]

Darnit. I was busy for a few days and got left behind. I see the arguing took on a life of it's own. Seems I planted a seed. My job is done here.

[ConcinusMan]

EDIT: Shannon posted before I hit the submit button. Keep that in mind.

The standard "5 gallon" size glass aquarium is approximately 40 X 20 cm floor space (16X8X10 inches) and it's actually 5.5 gallons. There are of course non-standard and custom sizes, especially if they're not made of glass.

That is obviously enough room for a very small snake. The main issue I have is unless you're keeping it in a heated snake room and using heat tape or heat pad on a very small area of one end, it's difficult to adequately heat the air inside the tank, say, with a ceramic heat emitter or basking bulb, while still maintaining a low enough air temperature on the cool end. It is true that garters do not have exacting temperature requirements, so people take this too far and do not provide enough heating, have too much fluctuation or overheat their garters. There are more temperatures to consider than most people even think of. There's the night time low,(which should be tank-wide) daytime high cool end, daytime high warm end, and there should be enough room for a gradient in between.

This is where plants, logs, hides and other things help to create a range of comfort zones. They are not just "decoration" that the snakes can live without, like some people tend to think.

I just prefer to create and environment that allows for the snake to thermoregulate and move about like it does in nature. Then along comes people and they think they can do it better by sticking them in a tub with heat tape. They think they know better than nature. This is not how garter snakes live normal lives. BP's and retics live like this naturally and people tend to apply it garter snakes as well. Garter snakes are not sedentary. They actively move about even if it's for no particular reason. I've seen the difference in appetite and attitude when you take a garter out of a dang shoebox and give it room, a wide gradient, landscaping, and "natural" lighting. Yes, they do indeed seem "happier" in such a setup.

[infernalis]

Just wanted to add to your post Richard, It's way easier to overheat a garter snake than underheat one.

I dislike talking about someone who is absent and cannot speak for themselves, so I'll speak generically.

There is a member here who found that out the hard way, she let direct sunlight irradiate a closed box containing baby garter snakes, they were all dead in mere minutes.

On the other side of that coin is the fact that sometimes we have "chilly spells" here in New York that can last for a week or more, and the local Garters do just fine.

I'm not challenging what you said in any way, just tossing out a personal observation at what seems like a relevant moment.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It's really, really hard to underheat a garter snake in the average home. It's very easy to overheat them. They are NOT FOND of being too warm.

[ConcinusMan]

Agreed. Overheating, even if only slightly but consistently, seems to be a more common mistake when keeping garters in captivity. Even if all other husbandry factors are correct, heat stress is a killer. Respiratory infections and related immune deficiencies can be directly linked to overheating, not just dampness, dirty tanks and underheating. Any reptile vet that knows what he is talking about will tell you that many case of respiratory infection can be linked to keeping a snake too warm. This may seem contradictory since most cases call for more warmth or 24/7 elevated temps to support the immune system during an infection. Garters are naturally well adapted to cooler and less than ideal seasons. In places where heat is a problem frequently, you will not find garters thriving. Populations are stable and garters thrive even in years that are cooler than ideal.

This one of the reasons that I think it's best to have an enclosure that's big enough to ideally create a small area that is as high as 88 or even 90 degrees but also make sure that the snake can easily find a spot that is around 70 degrees during the day. That's difficult to accomplish as enclosures get smaller. Simply using heat tape and/or undertank heater isn't enough IMO. A snake that is trying to raise it's core temp will sit on a surface that is too warm, "cook" it's babies and maybe even get burned and still not accomplish raising it's core temp enough.

I'm not saying that the way I do things is the absolute only "right" way to do things but there is a lot of years, and a lot trial and error behind my recommendation of how to set up a garter enclosure. The smaller the snakes, the more relevant and higher success rate I have when I do things this way.

This is not just about aesthetics. The snakes just seem to thrive this way. And why wouldn't they? This is how they live and thermoregulate in the wild. To me this is minimal setup. Even bigger with a wider range microclimates certainly couldn't hurt.

[ConcinusMan]

However, I'm saying the well decorated tank is done because the owner wants a pretty tank.

I don't know how many times I have to say why it's done that way before you finally understand. It has nothing to do with what I want. If I thought garters were better suited for living in an old cardboard shoebox, then by golly, that's what I would have them in.

Now you're telling me you not only keep them in tubs, but ignore basic proper husbandry such as heat/ temperature gradient and humidity. Then you also tell me there's nothing wrong with putting them on sand and insult us by telling us our "abilities" somehow are keeping us from doing so successfully. Now I'm starting to get irritated. You don't seem to understand one bit any of the reasons for anything related to husbandry. The issue with sand isn't even about impaction. If you knew what the heck you were doing you wouldn't be saying that. You sound completely clueless. I feel sorry for your snakes.

Well you must have some magic power to be able to ignore all of this and keep snakes healthy long term. I can tell you right now that if I kept a garter on sand, in a tub, and no heat, it would go downhill fast. Dang near everything you say about their husbandry is complete opposite of everything I've learned through trial and error over 25 years. It's as if you're trying to tell me, and just about everyone here, that we've been doing it wrong all this time, or that nothing we've come to know about their husbandry is valid.

[Millinex]

Mike, kudos to you for typing that much. My eyes might actually be bleeding now LOL. I for one have no problem with you or your opinions on snakes. I think a lot of the points you make are extremely valid, and are often things that everyone else is either unwilling to say, or refuses to be open to. What it boils down to is that we all have one thing in common... we love snakes. And we care so much about them that we are seriously passionate about being SO RIGHT about how we keep them. Let's all remember that we as snake lovers must remain allies, as we have no other allies in this world. There is not one solution to snake keeping that is absolutely right. What works for me, and what works for the next person, are not the same and they should not be the same.... just as some people feed their snakes in separate containers, and I feed my snakes in their enclosures. And there are people out there who think that is wrong, and will try and press that upon me, and I politely tell them to shove it! I don't have any business telling them they are wrong for feeding their snakes in boxes, and the same should hold true for them. There is nothing more destructive in our hobby than keepers who think their methods are absolutely the best and they feel the need to smear everyone else who does it differently. If everyone would agree to disagree, the world would be a better place.

Exactly what I was getting at, I'm not one to beat around the bush and be all afraid to say what's on my mind. I live in America, and this is the internet. On both I will freely exercise my freedom of speech, regardless of if people agree with me. That is part of what makes reptile husbandry so great, the fact that not one person has all the answers!

I don't know how many times I have to say why it's done that way before you finally understand. It has nothing to do with what I want. If I thought garters were better suited for living in an old cardboard shoebox, then by golly, that's what I would have them in.

Again, this is a disagreement. You feel that the snake needs more, however in all reality, I'd be willing to bet my car, house, and every animal in my collection I could show you side by side photos of snakes the same age, raised in both methods, and you could not pick out the tub raised individuals.

Now you're telling me you not only keep them in tubs, but ignore basic proper husbandry such as heat/ temperature gradient and humidity.

Far from the truth, people have kept garters for YEARS in all sorts of random things with absolutely no ill effects. I raised many as a kid, and bred them, between ages 5-10 in nothing more than 5 gallon buckets, with some grass thrown in, feeding nothing but worms. This is a NA native snake, you can meet all of its basic needs pretty easily without the use of heat pads, mats, lights, or other such heating fixtures, and I have done so for many many years. Although, clearly, because I do something differently, and the same way I have for years, I'm ignoring basic husbandry. The funny thing is, I have very expensive showcase cages, maintained at perfect humidity and temps for tropical species, to imitate their natural environment, but when I mimic the same for a native here, in my own way, I'm told I don't know what I'm doing. LOL.

Then you also tell me there's nothing wrong with putting them on sand

Because you can't manage to read what I posted "as long as you give them other areas/substrates as well", something along those lines. I've found HUNDREDS of garter snakes in sandy environments, although clearly the snake in the wild stops and thinks "oh wait, this is sand" and steers clear of the area, and never utilizes it. WRONG. Caught many snakes on sand, it's a very natural substrate and if used properly can do nothing but enhance the naturalistic effect of the substrate/environment chosen. Again, I never said pure sand, due to the roughness of its texture and the fact over time, only sand would probably cause irritation and scale damage.

and insult us by telling us our "abilities" somehow are keeping us from doing so successfully. Now I'm starting to get irritated. You don't seem to understand one bit any of the reasons for anything related to husbandry. The issue with sand isn't even about impaction. If you knew what the heck you were doing you wouldn't be saying that. You sound completely clueless. I feel sorry for your snakes.

I'm not insulting anyone, I'm saying that when you bring up sand, and herps, the most common phrase is "impaction" clearly you haven't been around the reptile hobby enough to know that a huge number of herps die each year from sand impaction, and it's probably one of the most common things I get emails about. I'm saying that if maintained properly, you can use some sand in your enclosures, as you would very easily find sand outside, animals use it all the time, although clearly this natural substance is awful, and should be replaced by repti-bark or carefresh. If I where to say that all the garters I ever displayed in a public room where always kept on dirt, I'd probably have people cry over that too, despite the fact that these animals live on dirt in the wild.

Do you really want me to list off the other problems with using sand as your only substrate? The roughness can damage scales, it can cause eye/nose irritation, impaction, it's messy, it absorbs and radiates a ton of heat if left too close to an open window. The list goes on and on why sand is not a good pure substrate, however some sand, is not going to kill your snake, do some field herping and educate yourself.

You feel sorry for my snakes? Because I don't keep them in naturalistic environments? The commercial snake industry is supplied by 2 sets of people mainly: captive hatchers, and breeders. Every breeder I have EVER met, uses a rack system. BHB enterprises, one of the top breeders of captive snakes uses racks, and does amazing business, and produces some extremely quality animals, so does Scott, so does my personal friend Dave, I mean hell if you want I can go list off a few hundred more breeders like Ben Seigel and Tom Crutchfield, some of the biggest names in captive snake breeding, but again, we are all cruel for using tubs/racks and you feel sorry for our snakes.

If you want, I'll be glad to post pictures of all of my animals, including the snakes living in the $1600 showcase cages my girlfriend purchased for her snakes, and I helped set up and I help maintain. Guess what, I have nothing against the cages, she enjoys them, and fully admits she got them for her enjoyment, because she likes to display her snakes rather than the rack I keep mine in. We have proper humidity, temp gradients, you name it, we have it on these cages, literally the whole 9 yards, she also has 2 baby corn snakes in tubs. Clearly though, you feel sorry for the snakes. Bash someone else, because if you want to have a go at me, I have no problem having a go at you.

Well you must have some magic power to be able to ignore all of this and keep snakes healthy long term. I can tell you right now that if I kept a garter on sand, in a tub, and no heat, it would go downhill fast. Dang near everything you say about their husbandry is complete opposite of everything I've learned through trial and error over 25 years. It's as if you're trying to tell me, and just about everyone here, that we've been doing it wrong all this time, or that nothing we've come to know about their husbandry is valid.

Again, learn to read, I never said using only sand is acceptable, can you not figure this out? I'm going to explain AGAIN, since you missed it and decided to selectively read to try to make a valid argument. Instead you made yourself look stupid. I said sand is acceptable with other substrates, not alone, because it can cause problems. Again, when you talk about sand and herps, the most COMMON THING BROUGHT UP, in nearly every scenario I have ever dealt with is "it impacts reptiles".

I keep mine in tubs, paper towel, water dish, and hide. They are kept in an outdoor shed that maintains 75-90 degrees in the day, and around 70 at night. They have a window on both sides of the shed, and get plenty of adequate lighting as well. I find these snakes in the exact same conditions living in the wild, literally, the only difference is that the shed doesn't temp spike to 110 like it sometimes does here, but then again, garters at this altitude don't come out at that time regardless, it's simply too hot. If you're saying you cant keep a garter healthy, in the same conditions as the area you've caught it from, than you are by far the most foolish reptile keeper I have ever met.

I've noticed your ability to selectively read, so I'll spell it out again for you, in hopes you manage to actually read and understand:
I have NOTHING against the use of realistic looking enclosures. I have used both and found ZERO difference in end result in keeping the snake. However, that doesn't make it ok to look down on my method of keeping in tubs and say "that's so cruel and wrong" because my snakes are just as healthy as yours in a natural enclosure.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

We are clearly not understanding each other. There are agreements, disagreements, and then there is a complete failure to get the point. It's obvious from your responses that you are completely missing my point every time. It's like you're not even hearing me. You keep arguing is such a way that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding my statements completely. You're arguing against things that weren't even my point. Not even close.

There's really no point in continuing. You're not hearing a word I'm saying.

[Millinex]

We are clearly not understanding each other. There are agreements, disagreements, and then there is a complete failure to get the point. It's obvious from your responses that you are completely missing my point every time. It's like you're not even hearing me. You keep arguing is such a way that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding my statements completely. You're arguing against things that weren't even my point. Not even close.

There's really no point in continuing. You're not hearing a word I'm saying.

Of course I'm not hearing a word you're saying. I'm reading it and reading it multiple times. The sad part is I have to re-read your posts over and over to get anywhere, because you are a selective reader plain and simple.

Would you like pictures? Hell I'll even post side by side pictures of a 2 year old male ball python raised in someone's very fancy reptile enclosure, and a picture of my girlfriends 1 year old ball, raised in a tub. Guess which one's healthier

I never bashed your point of view, your arguments have been 100% invalid and ignorant, and you've failed to read anything I've typed. Again, I have nothing against your way of keeping, despite what you seem to think.

[ConcinusMan]

You see, there it is again.