In Breeding

[gregmonsta]

some inbreeding is required to bring out the various morphs... good idea not to go past f3....

Definitely, to prove out a morph it is an important tool when limited sources of the required genetics abound. Had my earlier attempts at my anery concinnus project worked out I would be in F3 territory by now. Luckily I have Richard's experiences to draw on now and I won't have to go beyond F2 to test my ideas.
Again, it's then down to the breeder to advertise and sell responsibly, as required.

Just another thought...
How many people realise that if a breeder has a pair that they bred last year, and again this year, a female from last year mating with a male from this year is genetically the same as mating siblings together? They don't have to be from the same litter.

Now an example of a different species...
I know that my Cuitzeos are an F1 and F2, and come from a breeder in Europe. I also know that every Cuitzeo in Europe will have come from a single source (albeit one that has multiple wild caught snakes and breeds to produce genetic diversity). If in 20 years time someone decides that they need to get new blood in, and looks to the US to bring in some new blood, there's a good chance that the snakes from the US would originate from the same European breeder because some of his snakes have found there way to the US.
I guess the point of this is, that over time the early records that would definitively show the bloodlines are likely to be lost, and it's in the fourth, fifth, sixth generation that the records would become most important. What we do today can and will impact on the hobby for decades.

Some great points there. You would hope that some fresh blood would still be brought in somewhere along the line, in reference to the snakes crossing the pond.
It's also worth considering that in the wild a certain degree of inbreeding will be quite common. We're talking cousins and extensions of such. Nature seems to want to allow some separation of siblings considering that males becoming fertile at a younger age. Somewhere down the line it will happen though, and not just in isolated populations.
Again, it's down to how you build your collection, to follow your model.

My parietalis group is unrelated despite 3 of my animals coming from the same, trusted breeder. The first male can probably be traced to WC and the others can probably also be traced further.
My radix group has the same ratio. Two Dutch breeders and completely different lines (can probably be traced further).
My concinnus are currently a pair of Belgian brothers (can be traced back to WC through 2 generations) and an unrelated German female (F1 of fresh WC). If I find another female, with the males being related, I would still consider all offspring as F1.
My infernalis can be traced back through point of sale to a bloodline in Berlin, I think (will have to read the scribbles again and double check, these may be F1). I can only potentially generate F1/2 here as it stands.
My marcianus are 'unrelated' and were deliberately bought from different sources by the previous owner.
My 'Florida blue' sirtalis group is two sisters and an unrelated male, again according to previous owner. Again, all offspring of these would be F1.
The others I do not plan to breed so I will omit these - Panama may come into it, but it's not planned for and she's WC.

[EasternGirl]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3? Cee Cee and Seeley bred...and I think there is a good chance that Cee Cee is Seeley's mother. Of course, that wasn't exactly planned. So, are you saying that allowing parent/child or siblings to mate is not acceptable in the breeding community?

[Stefan-A]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3?

Generations.

[gregmonsta]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3? Cee Cee and Seeley bred...and I think there is a good chance that Cee Cee is Seeley's mother. Of course, that wasn't exactly planned. So, are you saying that allowing parent/child or siblings to mate is not acceptable in the breeding community?

Breeding offspring back to a parent is quite common when trying to prove out a specific trait. You would have to consider the offspring as F2 realistically.

What we are saying is that standard practice tolerates inbreeding to the 3rd, F3 generation.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Some brilliant clarification here, thankyou everybody.

Can I just ask though, I thought F1 was offspring from purely unrelated mating
, f2 offspring from siblings mating
f3 next generation mating with no new bloodlines.

Can you just confirm this or is f1 just first mating regardless?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

[gregmonsta]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

I can't pretend to be as technically minded as you but I'd be willing to do my bit. I would of thought there would be enough of us to make it work with all uk species. I have the paperwork for mine and do not mind been transparent with my collection .

[chris-uk]

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

What does a studbook need? I've not seen one in action, but making some guesses...

- Every snake has a unique ID, which remains constant regardless as to the current owner.
- Basic details for each snake which won't change (DOB, sex, parents, breeder).
- Current details for each snake (current owner, weight/length on a particular date)
- A record of each mating or attempted mating to identify the other snake in the pair.
- A record of each litter (total born, total live births).

- Each keeper has a unique ID.
- Basic details about each keeper.
- Contact details for each keeper.

- A form to register a snake.
- A form to transfer ownership of a snake.
- A form to update the current details of the snake.
- A form to record the death of a snake.
- Search interface to enable anyone to find useful information in the studbook.

Systematically, it's not a huge task to build something that would do the above and allow the studbook to be searched. For example, using my company's software I could have a studbook up and running in a couple of days (whether I'd be allowed to use company resources is another matter entirely and with a system that cost real money to build and host you open a can of worms as to who is responsible and pays for it).
However, the value of the system would be limited by the number of keepers and breeders who didn't use it. Like Greg, I have the interest but not the time, but I think the majority of people keeping snakes (even garters) wouldn't care enough to use a studbook and keep it up-to-date.

If the EGSA have a studbook couldn't UK garters be part of that? I've not joined the EGSA because I don't speak any German and the majority of the association's business is carried out in German (not everything is translated, and almost all forum posts are German).

[CrazyHedgehog]

would this not be something that the IHS should look into? maybe to help strengthen the reputation of herping etc?
do other reptiles have this in the UK? does it depend on how protected they are? if I had tortoises and bred them, would I not need to prove they were captive bred?