maritime garters

[GarterGirl]

Do any of you know if we can
get them in New York?

[drache]

Terry is in NY, Spatz
I've considered asking him whether we could come and pitch a tent next to his sunroom

[stonyloam]

Mikhaila: If I can find a nice little one, and IF you mom says it is OK, I'll send you one (maybe an antlion too).
P.S. This offer is open to 9 year old girls only.

[Josh]

i sent out for 1.1

[stonyloam]

I am getting more and more confused on the maritime vs eastern ID. Is there anything other than color that distinguishes them. There is not much on the web. Does anyone have some good photos of adult maritime garters?

[GarterGuy]

Well unfortunately when it comes right down to it, it is a matter of colour and pattern. T.s.sirtalis and T.s.pallidulus are only subspecies...it's kind of like the Cal.Redsided (T.s.infernalis) and the SanFran.garter (T.s.tetrataenia)...if you really look at them, they're the same snake, except that infernalis has red bars on its sides and tetrataenia has red stripes. With sirtalis and pallidulus, it seems to be that pallidulus usually has the dorsal stripe reduced or absent and the spots on it tend to be vary numerous (even to the point of forming "crossbars" across the back) and smaller then sirtalis. Most sirtalis that have a lot of spotting seem to have fairly large spots running down the sides or even sort of checkered pattern on them, but don't have the fine spotting that you see in pallidulus. Something also to remember here is that since they're just subspecies and their territories cross over, there's probably some hybridization between to the two which will only make things more complicated for ID. I've also found here and there, some people who don't actually consider pallidulus to be a distinct subspecies and would just include it with sirtalis....so who knows, pallidulus may become invalid at some time. I know snake ID is hard, especailly at the subspecies level and particularily with as widely distributed and highly variable a species as T.sirtalis. Hope this helps out some.

Roy

[stonyloam]

Thanks Roy: That was the best explanation that I have seen. Of course I am still confused. So according to the description:


This could be a maritime garter


This is probably an eastern


who Knows (after it shed it had an overall green color)


Or they could all be just local color variations of easterns, which may be what maritimes are after all. They are all from my yard in westrn NY.

[Lee]

I'd say #2 is an eastern X maratime..

[GarterGuy]

Thanks Roy: That was the best explanation that I have seen. Of course I am still confused. So according to the description:


This could be a maritime garter


This is probably an eastern


who Knows (after it shed it had an overall green color)


Or they could all be just local color variations of easterns, which may be what maritimes are after all. They are all from my yard in westrn NY.

If pallidulus is considered a valid subspecies, I'd say that all three are pallidulus. #1 and #3 definitely show it and even #2. Even though it does have a back stripe, it's broken in several areas by the side spots making those "cross bars" that I was talking about. In all the field pics I have of sirtalis, even though the dorsal stripe may be intruded on by the side spotting, it's never broken....or interrupted by the spots. This is what gives sirtalis it's "distinct" side stripe (even though there are individuals with out it...... confusing isn't it!!??!!?? ). Only 100% definite thing I can say is that they are Thamnophis sirtalis ssp. .....but you already knew that.

Roy

[GarterGirl]

I'd love to have one!
Drache says to ask her
after the seventh
because we're moving.
Thanks Terry!