Time for Brumation?

[Peterra]

Resilient little snakes when it comes to dealing with the cold (they seem able to brumate close too freezing):

"Bailey (1949) assessed survival atdifferent depths (6-24 in; 1 in. = 25.4 mm) in an artificiallyconstructed snake pit. He found that all snakes survived at adepth of 24 in., where the soil temperature never fell below-0.5"C, but mortality increased at the 18-in. depth, where thetemperature sometimes fell to - 1.5 "C. All snakes died at allshallower levels, where extended exposures to -2°C or lowerwere recorded (Bailey 1949) "

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...s-sirtalis.pdf

On a different note I just realized I misspelled brumate in a different way every time I wrote it.... Wow, there should be a special prize for that

[Peterra]

Another interesting read is the article linked below, what I got from it was the importance of hydration during brumation.


Effects of humidity, temperature, and submergence behavior on survivorship and energy use in hibernating garter snakes, Thamnophis sirtalis

Desiccation is likely an important factor influencing winter mortality rates of terrestrially hibernating reptiles; however, this notion has not been rigorously tested. Groups of eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) were matched for size and subsequently exposed to simulated hibernative conditions (5 or 12 °C, under different humidity regimes) during winter, for 165 days or until all group members expired. As garter snakes in some dens submerge during natural hibernation, an additional group was maintained in water at 5 °C. Snakes kept in air dehydrated and died (body water contents at death ranged from 62.1 to 67.8% of lean fresh mass), whereas snakes kept in water remained hydrated (median, 75.2%) and survived. Survival duration of air hibernators was inversely related to rate of mass loss, which in turn was strongly influenced by ambient humidity and temperature. Dehydration accounted for most of the mass lost in all air hibernators; however, owing to higher rates of nutrient consumption, mass loss was significantly greater in snakes kept at 12 °C (36%) than in snakes kept at 5 °C (29%). Changes in fat body and liver masses showed that snakes kept in air at 12 °C used the most energy whereas those kept in water at 5 °C used the least. Submerged hibernation behavior has significant survival value because under these conditions snakes remain hydrated during winter. Also, because submerged snakes conserve more stored energy during winter, their reproductive success may be enhanced when mating activities resume in early spring

https://www.units.miamioh.edu/cryola...88_CanJZoo.PDF

[BUSHSNAKE]

Another interesting read is the article linked below, what I got from it was the importance of hydration during brumation.


Effects of humidity, temperature, and submergence behavior on survivorship and energy use in hibernating garter snakes, Thamnophis sirtalis

Desiccation is likely an important factor influencing winter mortality rates of terrestrially hibernating reptiles; however, this notion has not been rigorously tested. Groups of eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) were matched for size and subsequently exposed to simulated hibernative conditions (5 or 12 °C, under different humidity regimes) during winter, for 165 days or until all group members expired. As garter snakes in some dens submerge during natural hibernation, an additional group was maintained in water at 5 °C. Snakes kept in air dehydrated and died (body water contents at death ranged from 62.1 to 67.8% of lean fresh mass), whereas snakes kept in water remained hydrated (median, 75.2%) and survived. Survival duration of air hibernators was inversely related to rate of mass loss, which in turn was strongly influenced by ambient humidity and temperature. Dehydration accounted for most of the mass lost in all air hibernators; however, owing to higher rates of nutrient consumption, mass loss was significantly greater in snakes kept at 12 °C (36%) than in snakes kept at 5 °C (29%). Changes in fat body and liver masses showed that snakes kept in air at 12 °C used the most energy whereas those kept in water at 5 °C used the least. Submerged hibernation behavior has significant survival value because under these conditions snakes remain hydrated during winter. Also, because submerged snakes conserve more stored energy during winter, their reproductive success may be enhanced when mating activities resume in early spring

https://www.units.miamioh.edu/cryola...88_CanJZoo.PDF

This is how people brumate their garters. Theyll give them a dry substrate and a water bowl and throw them in a fridge. Many find their garter snake living in the water bowl.

[Peterra]

This is how people brumate their garters. Theyll give them a dry substrate and a water bowl and throw them in a fridge. Many find their garter snake living in the water bowl.

Sorry but I do not follow what you are saying. That is an experiment describing several different protocols, all of them quite different than what you stated; nevertheless, maybe you can be more explicit about the temperature, humidity and other parameters that you use. Also, your number of successful repetitions of same conditions and same outcome will be illuminating.

On a different note, I think that we all want the same outcome, learning what is best for our snakes. So, I think we are all open to be proven wrong and learn something new and better, wouldn't that just make your and your snakes day?

[smitty319]

Update:
Nicole is still not eating but her skin has started to have a shine to it so maybe she has to shed? Her eyes haven't turned blue yet though. I don't think it has anything to do with desiccation because her terrarium stays at a constant 80f and 60-70% humidity w/ a large water bowl

[BUSHSNAKE]

Update:
Nicole is still not eating but her skin has started to have a shine to it so maybe she has to shed? Her eyes haven't turned blue yet though. I don't think it has anything to do with desiccation because her terrarium stays at a constant 80f and 60-70% humidity w/ a large water bowl

If it doesnt start to eat soon i would still recommend giving it a cooling period. Not a full blone brumation like you would an adult but if you keep it at 80 degrees and its not eating it will start to dehydrate. You can simply take it off any heat. Keep it in a cool area and make sure it stays hydrated. Any snake born that late in the year can be a challenge cuz your fighting its natural insticts
I personally dont think brumation is dangerous. Ive never had many problems with it to the point that i wouldnt do it. It has helped in your type of situation. If done right it doesnt matter how old the snake is. Garters in general can be a pain in the butt. The do seem to have a higher mortality rate then other snakes but thats a part of keeping garter snakes and alot of the times has nothing to do with brumation.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I think there should be a "how to brumate your garters" thread

[Albert Clark]

I think there should be a "how to brumate your garters" thread

Maybe you should be more specific and title it " How to brumate your 30 day old garter who is refusing meals". That is where the discussion and controversy lies in determining brumation over so many other possibilities for inappetance or feeding interruptions in 30 day old snakes.

[Albert Clark]

Bushsnake says "If done right it doesnt matter how old the snake is".

This statement cannot be true nor does it show consideration for fragile, baby snakes that don't have the nutritional stores to endure brumation.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Bushsnake says "If done right it doesnt matter how old the snake is".

This statement cannot be true nor does it show consideration for fragile, baby snakes that don't have the nutritional stores to endure brumation.

I stand by what i say cuz of experience. Do really think im gonna keep going back and forth with you? The conversation isnt going anywhere. I dont care if you dissagree with. If you have better suggestions then speek up