Let's vent:What really ticks you off about the pet trade!

[Bill]

oh well , tried to get something going here . Guess not. Got to go close up shop.by

[adamanteus]

I think perhaps the situation is worse in the US? In Europe (certainly in the UK) these kind of conditions are not tolerated any more.

[adamanteus]

I wish we had a 'clapping' emoticon! Well done Sschind! A better thought out and worded post I haven't seen in a long time. Kudos.
It is easy for us, as the 'end user' to judge others, but we should remember that there is a financial side to this.... many of us are quick to try to turn a quick buck, when we see the opportunity.... I think Sschind has shown us a little of the real world here, that we might normally try to ignore.
I can see this developing into an interesting and controversial thread, let's keep it civilised and sensible, and have an interesting debate here.

[Bill]

Sschind, I am happy to meet you and you did not offend me. It is nice to here that there is a ethical pet store owner out there you are among the few. Let me tell you a little about myself. I am a commercial breeder of panther chameleons. My partner of this island earth herpeticulture works primarily with rare geckos and I do sell my animals to the public on the internet and at reptile shows. I am glad to here that you recognize the importance of captive breeding and the superior quality of a captive vs wild caught. I realize your frustration when someone brings you a baby animal and wants full price for it but I don't recall mentioning any of that. So I think you have grasped the hole point of this thread when I called it let's vent and tossed out a topic.

[Bill]

Sschind, If you don't mind I would like to address some of your statements or clearify some of mine.

1st yes the importers do sell more well maybe not in a day than I sell in a year. But then again I don't see them selling to many Quality panther chameleons or Australian and New Calidonian geckos but yes they do sell a hugh amount of animals. Might point was For every animal I sell someone has to go to a pet store and buy a cage,a light fixture,sprayers,bedding,food and on and on. Some body buys a $ 15.00 lizard and can end up spending $500.00 at your store. Buy this I mean the back bone of the industry, Maybe not the best choice of words but I think you get what I'm driving at.


On the second paragragh I agree with you Brother I feel your pain. And the worst part about that is they may leave and never come back. I was trying to look back to the days when I would be in the position of breeding something and then try to sell the babies back to the store. This was my attempt to include more people into this conversation. You are right small animals are not worth as much as something with some size on it. I don't sell my chams. until they are at least 3 monthsold and chams. grow fast.

It looks like I already covered 3


4 Well I agree with you whole hartedly on four. So maybe this thread Is to our mutual benifit. You see I am trying to educate people to the benifits of buying captive bred and here you are trying to provide captive bred in your store. But while your on the subject of things costing more why is it that there always seems to be 2 price scales. Most shop owners want to sell you all the breeding supplies you need at full retail and then you want to base the price you pay to a breeder on what the WC crap sells for. It's no wonder breeders need to ask more for animals. It's a wonder anyone tries to breed anything at all.


5th well I think we already addressed 5 but have you know I work about 12 hours a day in my breeding room. Besides the daily cleaning and feeding I have to clean and feed and gutload the food build cages and on and on. You know what I mean. No sense preeching to you.


6th " We" I mean the consumer. The rest Yeh thats what i am trying to do.


7th well you lost me there. I think you were venting. Feels kind of good ha.


well I think adamanteus missed something. I was not trying to sell back to these people. I was speaking about a wholesaler who I will not name and I was refering to someone selling back to the pet shops. And the rest ,I agree with you. I would also like to take a minute and praise you for your hard work. You are absolutely right when you say that alot of people just don"t get it . They will turn there nose up at a beautiful captive bred bearded dragon at your store and buy some piece of crap down the street because it's $10.00 cheaper. We are on the same side my friend. We need to get the word out and educate people. I wish I did live near by so I could visit your store and we could talk. I would like to shake your hand. I run my business much the same way. Most everything is bred in house. I costs us both alot of money to do it this way. I think of it this way. Sure we could make more money selling the crap. These shops are the reson that every trash day you can find a fish tank or some type of cage out next to the barrels and they tend to be short lived. A business like yours built on honesty and integrity and concern for the animals in your care is an istitution built to withstand the test of time!!!


Hey Sschind , How did it feel to vent brother? Got any other gripes you need to get off your chest? LET"S VENT!!!

[adamanteus]

Good luck at the show, Steve. Hope it's a good day.

[mycolorfulheart]

I wrote a paper about the pet trade about a year ago!

The things that bother me the most are

1. Animals that do not make good pets, or that do make good pets but should only be sold to an experienced buyer, being so cheap and readily avaliable. An example we're all familiar with would be green iguanas. They are amazing animals but how many die because the customer was told, "Oh it won't grow any more if you keep it in a small cage. All you need to feed it is lettuce!"

When I first moved out of my mom's house and out on my own, I went looking for a low maintenance pet. My friend talked me into getting hermit crabs (I should have done research on it first, but I trusted her, and she had been told some very bad information. We've both grown from the experience and she now believes hermits shouldn't be pets.) Well, hermits are incredibly cheap, found in almost every pet store. And the amount of misleading and false information on them is incredible. Pet store employees say, "They are the easiest pets ever!" And even published books have false information on them. In reality they are extremely sensitive to humidity, heat, and other hermits. The stress from being in captivity is the reason they don't breed--that to me sends off red flags that they shouldn't be in captivity at all! They need fresh and salt water, and a varied diet far different than the fish meal blends being sold as 'hermit crab food!'

The first crab I bought was about the size of my fist and estimated to be 20 years old. (At the time he was older than I was!) He had survived so long in the wild, only to die 6 months later at my house. I tried my luck with other crabs, and eventually all died but one. I tried everything to keep them happy but none of it worked. I gave it up for adoption to a more experienced owner. Any animal that stands a better chance of survival in the wild should stay IN THE WILD. No one cares about these creatures because they are primitive crustaceans, but let me tell you they are amazing and beautiful and don't deserve to be murdered. There is alot more I could say about hermits, and my second point, but I'm late for a movie so I'll post back late!

[Zephyr]

I wrote a paper about the pet trade about a year ago!

The things that bother me the most are

1. Animals that do not make good pets, or that do make good pets but should only be sold to an experienced buyer, being so cheap and readily avaliable. An example we're all familiar with would be green iguanas. They are amazing animals but how many die because the customer was told, "Oh it won't grow any more if you keep it in a small cage. All you need to feed it is lettuce!"

When I first moved out of my mom's house and out on my own, I went looking for a low maintenance pet. My friend talked me into getting hermit crabs (I should have done research on it first, but I trusted her, and she had been told some very bad information. We've both grown from the experience and she now believes hermits shouldn't be pets.) Well, hermits are incredibly cheap, found in almost every pet store. And the amount of misleading and false information on them is incredible. Pet store employees say, "They are the easiest pets ever!" And even published books have false information on them. In reality they are extremely sensitive to humidity, heat, and other hermits. The stress from being in captivity is the reason they don't breed--that to me sends off red flags that they shouldn't be in captivity at all! They need fresh and salt water, and a varied diet far different than the fish meal blends being sold as 'hermit crab food!'

The first crab I bought was about the size of my fist and estimated to be 20 years old. (At the time he was older than I was!) He had survived so long in the wild, only to die 6 months later at my house. I tried my luck with other crabs, and eventually all died but one. I tried everything to keep them happy but none of it worked. I gave it up for adoption to a more experienced owner. Any animal that stands a better chance of survival in the wild should stay IN THE WILD. No one cares about these creatures because they are primitive crustaceans, but let me tell you they are amazing and beautiful and don't deserve to be murdered. There is alot more I could say about hermits, and my second point, but I'm late for a movie so I'll post back late!

I too have dabbled in hermit crabs; if there's one species that can be kept, it's the purple claws. Everything else is destined for disaster in captivity. ):

[Bill]

I wrote a paper about the pet trade about a year ago!

The things that bother me the most are

1. Animals that do not make good pets, or that do make good pets but should only be sold to an experienced buyer, being so cheap and readily avaliable. An example we're all familiar with would be green iguanas. They are amazing animals but how many die because the customer was told, "Oh it won't grow any more if you keep it in a small cage. All you need to feed it is lettuce!"

When I first moved out of my mom's house and out on my own, I went looking for a low maintenance pet. My friend talked me into getting hermit crabs (I should have done research on it first, but I trusted her, and she had been told some very bad information. We've both grown from the experience and she now believes hermits shouldn't be pets.) Well, hermits are incredibly cheap, found in almost every pet store. And the amount of misleading and false information on them is incredible. Pet store employees say, "They are the easiest pets ever!" And even published books have false information on them. In reality they are extremely sensitive to humidity, heat, and other hermits. The stress from being in captivity is the reason they don't breed--that to me sends off red flags that they shouldn't be in captivity at all! They need fresh and salt water, and a varied diet far different than the fish meal blends being sold as 'hermit crab food!'

The first crab I bought was about the size of my fist and estimated to be 20 years old. (At the time he was older than I was!) He had survived so long in the wild, only to die 6 months later at my house. I tried my luck with other crabs, and eventually all died but one. I tried everything to keep them happy but none of it worked. I gave it up for adoption to a more experienced owner. Any animal that stands a better chance of survival in the wild should stay IN THE WILD. No one cares about these creatures because they are primitive crustaceans, but let me tell you they are amazing and beautiful and don't deserve to be murdered. There is alot more I could say about hermits, and my second point, but I'm late for a movie so I'll post back late!

Hey, thanks for poping in to vent! I think you are a very special person to be able to care that much for a hermit crab. I wish i had that much heart. I do believe however that we are all conected on this planet. All of us part of a much larger eco system tied together in one big strand of DNA. How many breaks in the DNA can we make before it all falls apart?
So who cares about hermit crabs and iguanas? Well what if some new virus should break out and our own survival depends on an enzime that can only be found in hermit crabs or iguanas? A large amount of our drugs come from the rain forest plants and there burning it down. We don't even know what future cures have been lost. Were just throughing it all away.
Hey nice talking to ya!

[Stefan-A]

Hey, thanks for poping in to vent! I think you are a very special person to be able to care that much for a hermit crab. I wish i had that much heart. I do believe however that we are all conected on this planet. All of us part of a much larger eco system tied together in one big strand of DNA. How many breaks in the DNA can we make before it all falls apart?
So who cares about hermit crabs and iguanas? Well what if some new virus should break out and our own survival depends on an enzime that can only be found in hermit crabs or iguanas? A large amount of our drugs come from the rain forest plants and there burning it down. We don't even know what future cures have been lost. Were just throughing it all away.
Hey nice talking to ya!

We can wipe out 95% of all species and still have a functioning ecosystem. It's very sensitive to disturbances at that point (which is the real problem), but it should still work.

I did pull that "95%" out of my arse, but it's not far from the estimated figure, which I'll have to try to look up when I get home. The point was that the ecosystem can endure pretty damn much before it starts to collapse. Apparently, this has actually been tested.