In Breeding

[gregmonsta]

Are there still people finding infernalis influence in some of the European lines?

I don't ask in any sort of accusatory way but out of personal curiousity. A few years back there was more talk of it but I haven't seen it brought up recently.

Can of worms time for the sake of debate, of course.

Well ... there's a point of debate even prior to the introduction of infernalis into the captive tetrataenia genepool.

Do we see them as a distinct sub-species or a locality specific morph in isolation from the infernalis genepool? After all, they have been de-classified and re-classified and debated about as they stand in the wild.

I'm happy to treat them as a separate species as they are currently classified but you can see where some of the cross-breeding in Europe is a moot point. Considering even Rossman's offering came at a time when tetrataenia were assimilated into infernalis.

In captivity:
First of all - some lines are trace-able, some are not. Some breeders that have done this can be named, and again some can not. The fact is that this could even have happend in one of the zoos at some point. I do know for a fact that that this was dabbled with in the British genepool and I have even come across people on British forums whose prime intention, as I found out, was to do more of the same (discovered in response to me trying to give advice on how best to proceed with their tetrataenia project) inspired simply by the fact that it had been done before.
Another issue is that we have also seen 'pure' infernalis produce offspring with the tetrataenia phenotype. So are both lines polluted? or is this proof of a morph?

But, like yourself, I haven't heard anything new on the subject for a while ... and I'll re-state that I'm in favour of tetrataenia remaining a separate entity as it stands

[SilasBannook]

Can of worms time for the sake of debate, of course.

Well ... there's a point of debate even prior to the introduction of infernalis into the captive tetrataenia genepool.

Do we see them as a distinct sub-species or a locality specific morph in isolation from the infernalis genepool? After all, they have been de-classified and re-classified and debated about as they stand in the wild.

Another issue is that we have also seen 'pure' infernalis produce offspring with the tetrataenia phenotype. So are both lines polluted? or is this proof of a morph?

Gregmonsta,
I found your comment about having seen 'pure' infernalis produce tetrataenia-like offspring surprising. As I have two infernalis garters I plan to breed I was interested and concerned in knowing if that could happen to my snakes (being in the US having an endangered species at home wouldn't be ideal). Anyway, I looked for other reports backing that statement and only found that in the 2005 Endangered Species report for the San Francisco Garter Snake it was believed that integration of infernalis and tetrataenia wasn't very likely as the integrade zones studied had remained healthy and distinct for numerous years (http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/San Franci...view.FINAL.pdf).
Could you help me find a report or two of infernalis producing tetrataenia babies?

I did find one report of an infernalis having a tetraenia baby but the mother was mated with a tetraenia in captivity (Alan's Garter Snakes - My Collection). Would be interested in seeing reporting of tetraenia babies from a mating of two infernalis snakes.

Thanks.

[Spankenstyne]

I'm of the same mindset about it all but was just curious if there had been any further more recent insight I wasn't aware of. There certainly isn't a clear line when it comes to the two, but personally I'm also in favour of tetrataenia remaining a separate entity as well. This even though I do think they are likely a somewhat isolated aberrant population of infernalis.

Now to open a completely different can of worms .. I also tend to believe that the gene pool might be a little deeper than is thought, with the amount of smuggling that has happened over the years within the hobby it would be naive to think that there haven't been at least a few trickle into Europe & Canada over the years that aren't from the original zoo stock.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

I assume with all the zoo regulations in the uk that the ones at Chester zoo are a clean bloodline or even wild caught??

[CrazyHedgehog]

I assume with all the zoo regulations in the uk that the ones at Chester zoo are a clean bloodline or even wild caught??

Sorry, pretty sure they are captive bred, (
I think I have even sold to some of the zoos, I was told off for selling really cheap... but it seemed a worthy cause at the time!!)

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Sorry, pretty sure they are captive bred, (
I think I have even sold to some of the zoos, I was told off for selling really cheap... but it seemed a worthy cause at the time!!)

I would of thought a big zoo like Chester would be stricted on where they get there animals from . I know they have to apply to some Europen zoo group there in for the animals they want to obtain but I'm not sure how it works .:-s

[Thamnophis]

Take a look at European Studbook Foundation

[Greg'sGarters]

I've never heard of serious problems arising from inbreeding

[Stefan-A]

I've never heard of serious problems arising from inbreeding

Why not? It's as old as sexual reproduction.

[guidofatherof5]

With respect I would say the act itself is a serious problem.