Is this what it looks like?

[infernalis]

i would have no problem accepting what you say Wayne as it seems to be a likely scenario, but for one nagging doubt, if many casual keepers had indeed committed this deceitful act then would the Euro tetra be exhibiting such inbred tendencies,

Judging by my conversation with this bloke, Money was not of any interest here, he's very fluid financially.

That's where things get "tricky", if several casual keepers allow this to happen, then give away the offspring, or sell them cheaply in bulk... well you get the idea.

We are a unique lot here, most of the general public (who like snakes as "pets") could give a rats arse about genetics or purity of the bloodlines.

One reason why albino chequered garter snakes are so popular in the trade is they are cheap to buy.

As fanciers of all things Thamnophis, we all know that snake is another heavily inbred animal, but the people who frequent the pet shops only see a pretty snake that is small, cheap and easy to care for.

Then take it home and feed it goldfish.

[PINJOHN]

i take your point Wayne that this wasn't necessarily done with nefarious aims, but it still remains that the tetra being bought over here are allegedly having health problems which shouldn't be happening if their gene pool had been widened to any significant degree.

[infernalis]

i take your point Wayne that this wasn't necessarily done with nefarious aims, but it still remains that the tetra being bought over here are allegedly having health problems which shouldn't be happening if their gene pool had been widened to any significant degree.

I get you point mate..

I just wish that our government would ease up and allow private keepers to breed tetras in the US, it would certainly keep the species alive and well on the planet long after all suitable habitats are finally gone.

I also realize that as soon as that happened, poaching them from the wild would suddenly become a viable means of income and temptation in today's economy would be too great.

[PINJOHN]

poaching from the wild would only happen while tetra's fetch a high price, the answer might be for the government to [for a short period ] subsidize licensed breeders to produce large numbers for release on a given day to the hobby at reasonable prices ............do you know what Wayne reading what i'v just written doesn't even convince me ,so forget that idea i'm stumped

[infernalis]

poaching from the wild would only happen while tetra's fetch a high price, the answer might be for the government to [for a short period ] subsidize licensed breeders to produce large numbers for release on a given day to the hobby at reasonable prices ............do you know what Wayne reading what i'v just written doesn't even convince me ,so forget that idea i'm stumped

No worries..

High price or not, even at $50 a snake, the chance to make a couple hundred for just catching some garters is too tempting with our crumbling economy.

There is a person who is well known for scooping up puget (blue stripe) garters, gravid or otherwise and shipping them all over at $100 per snake, and he makes some serious money doing it.. so something "new" to the hobby with the desirability of a tetra would certainly have people out hunting for them.

[chris-uk]

Making me think about why I want a tetra...

1. Is it because I want a beautiful snake to look at and admire?
2. Is it because I want to feel like I'm helping to keep a species alive in captivity?

My thinking was originally option 2. But then I realised that if it was a dog ugly snake (negating option 1) then I probably wouldn't give a toss about option 2. My feeling is that tetras are a species worth preserving for as long as we can. But I'm increasingly feeling that the EU-bred tetra isn't going to satisfy option 2 unless I have complete confidence with where I source the snake from.

We've talked about inbreeding and health problems. I'm aware that I, for one, have made an assumption that if there's inbreeding in the tetra population there must be an impact on the health of the population - simply because that's the biological consequence of inbreeding.
I'm not aware that anyone contributing to this thread actually keeps/breeds tetras, so it would be useful to hear about first hand experience of low breeding yields, high mortality in young, mutations away from the tetra phenotype, etc. Is it really a problem, or one assumed because the EU stock all came from handful of snakes?

In the US controlled breeding with chipped specimens, and all offspring being chipped, and only sold to keepers who are licensed, may help.

[PINJOHN]

not sure as to the feasibility of chipping a small snake like a garter, not even sure about the possibility's for large snakes

[infernalis]

I'm not aware that anyone contributing to this thread actually keeps/breeds tetras, so it would be useful to hear about first hand experience of low breeding yields, high mortality in young, mutations away from the tetra phenotype, etc. Is it really a problem, or one assumed because the EU stock all came from handful of snakes?

In the US controlled breeding with chipped specimens, and all offspring being chipped, and only sold to keepers who are licensed, may help.

Stefan has contributed to this thread and he keeps them.

I may not be allowed to keep them, but I follow all of this with great interest and am in contact with several of Europes best known breeders, all of them are members here as well.

Just to give you an idea, both of these snakes came from the same litter born in Holland by Fons, a former moderator here (used with gracious permission)....

[chris-uk]

not sure as to the feasibility of chipping a small snake like a garter, not even sure about the possibility's for large snakes

Not talking about garters here, but I read that there are some protected species of snakes that can only be sold and cross borders legally when they have been chipped. These were snakes that have Cites protection, and more than likely weren't in private hands.

Stefan has contributed to this thread and he keeps them.

I may not be allowed to keep them, but I follow all of this with great interest and am in contact with several of Europes best known breeders, all of them are members here as well.

I wasn't aware that Stefan keeps tetras, not that it changes the way I read anything posted so far, but I was looking for input (like the two photos you posted) on the breeding issues. Of those two photos it's hard to say which is more disturbing.

I'm finding this whole thread useful, because if I do end up looking for tetras I want to be as well informed and knowledgable as possible when I buy them.

[kibakiba]

Well, not to go too much off topic and bring up something that could rile people up... But, the bible says the earth started from 2 people. So wouldn't that technically make us all brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc if that were true? That would be inbreeding at its "finest".