Garter vs. Corn (round 2 ;)

[drache]

as I said - none of my kings are nippy and they're the first snakes I'll give to kids to hold

[Garter_Gertie]

Pratty, you NEED a Hoggy! They can be difficult eaters - some are, some aren't - but they are ghe GREATEST snakes!

[sschind]

If anything, I think this debate has proven that there is no such thing as a "best beginner snake" What is best for one may not fit the needs of others. Corn snakes, garter snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, ball pythons, boa constrictors, all of these can make excellent first snakes if the conditions for keeping each one can be met. And for my fellow smelt eater Gertie I will add hoggies to the list.

I know the OP had a few guidelines that would certainly preclude many snakes as being the best for him so much of what I will say now does not apply in this case, but it is just something for you to think about the next time someone asks "what is the best beginner snake?"

One of the things I think most people overlook when suggesting a first snake is the "want" factor. What kind of snake do you want? No snake is going to be good for you if you don't want it. If you let someone talk you into something you don't want there is a much greater likelihood that you will end up not taking care of it. I had a lady come in with her 16 year old son looking for a snake. He had his heart set on a ball python, she was adamant that he wasn't going to get one. He had done his homework and I felt that there was no reason why he wouldn't succeed with a ball but since mom was buying she won out and he got a corn snake. Less than a year later she brought the snake back because he wasn't taking care of it.
"See, I knew he wouldn't take care of it, its a good thing corns are so tough, the python probably would have died the way he looked after it" the kid moved out of his parents house the day after his 18th birthday and on his way to his new apartment he stopped in and bought a ball python. That was 6 years ago. He now has 11 ball pythons. He has bred albinos, pastels and spiders and he is working on pieds and ghosts, and his mom gushes over what he has accomplished every time she comes in and every time she tells me how wrong she was in insisting he get a corn snake. She even has one of his snakes. The first one he ever hatched out. I know, I know, its a real Hallmark moment. I'll pause a bit to allow you to wipe away the tear.

Seriously though, the very first question I ask when people come in to buy a snake is "what kind of snake are you looking for" If someone were to come in and say "I am looking for a snake" I think it would be very short sighted and irresponsible for me to to say " Well, the corn snake is the best beginner snake there is" without getting more information.

Obviously, just because someone wants something really bad doesn't mean it is the best one. I wouldn't recommend a rock python or a green anaconda for anyone much less a beginner no matter how bad he or she wanted it. Some sort of common sense has to come into play.

Of course, it should go without saying that people looking for a first snake should not be considering anything other than a well established, healthy and reliably feeding animal. Statements like "Ball pythons can be tough to get feeding" really are not relevant because no one in their situation should be considering a snake that is not already feeding. Some things that may make a snake unsuitable (hard to get feeding for example) are inconsequential once the snake is established. Also, the periodic fasts that some snakes can go on is also not necessarily a bad thing if the person is aware of it. Certainly it can be disconcerting for the first time ball python owner when, after two years of eating every week, his snake suddenly refuses a meal in late October and does not eat again until mid March. I have people calling me every fall, some in full panic mode, expressing concerns over this very issue. I ask a few questions, sometimes they bring the snake in, and once any irregularities are ruled out I can fairly confidently advise them not to worry, the snake will start eating again when it is ready. If they are aware of this potential development in advance, the shock is less severe when and if it comes.

I have sold corns, kings, mt. kings, balls, and boas as first snakes to people. All of them had demonstrated to me that they knew what was involved in the purchase and none of them led me to believe that they wouldn't succeed. Did they all work out? No, of course not. People change their minds. People lose interest. Other things become more important in their lives. Still, we can't know that and it is up to us, when they come to us for advice, to give them the best advice we can. We can't give them the best advice if we don't know all their needs and we certainly can't give them the best advice if we are not open minded enough to know that there can be more than one answer to some of the questions.

[sschind]

Sorry, I should just add to the above that I am not pointing any fingers or anything like that. This is a very helpful forum and I am reasonably certain that most of the people who took the time to read through my long winded post are already aware of these things. I just had a little time to kill while some tanks were draining.

[Garter_Gertie]

sschind... You nutcase! "Hallmark moment"!!! And yes, I did have to bat my eyes to clear them. You goofball!

Very nice statments. I don't feel you pointed a finger, particularly at me. Kenabec and Niizh came eating f/t and had - thus spaketh the breeder - for quite a few meals. However... Being Hoggies which are prone to go off feed and given the little boogers still can tell winter's here, I'll be damned if they're eating at all. Kenabec went back to the breeder for reconditioning to f/t. And Niizh, that I couldn't bear to have away from me for a day, let alone 2-3 months of reconditioning, I broke down and did the live thing - dumping him and pinkie in his deli cup, covering the two o'them and running and hiding...

Garters and Hoggies kind'a are my two beginner snakes as I got into them at the same time. I agree so much with what you said. For me Hoggies are good beginner snakes as I love them to pieces. Garters, too.

I'm learning a lot as I move along because both species have different requirements in so many ways. I don't find it a challenge or difficult because both species I couldn't imagine living without.

I like so much how you can see that a person's heart is involved. You may have no interests in Hoggies and so they'd not be for you even though I tossed the idea out there. So glad you can realize that - and so very glad especially for your customers...

Hope we read of more "Hallmark Moments." (wiping away a tear)

[sschind]

You may have no interests in Hoggies and so they'd not be for you even though I tossed the idea out there.

Actually, the last snake in my collection I would ever consider getting rid of is an Eastern Hognose A friend of mine had a WC female lay a clutch of eggs for him while he was holding her for a photo shoot. They all hatched, he gave me one and let the rest go where he had found the mom. I got him on mouse pinkies right off and and now he eats rat pinks like there is no tomorrow. He is always a hit at the shows I do because I can always get him to do his cobra impression. He's too good natured though to play dead and there is no way I would torment him enough to make him do it.

[Garter_Gertie]

Hoggies are not dummies. Even captives, used in state park snake presentations, won't do the roll-ove-and-play-dead fun deal.

BUT! Within seconds of letting them go. There you are! Dead snakes!

They realize quickly when it behooves them to or not to play dead.

Long-term captives and CB and CBB, forget it. Sadly. It's one of the most enduring aspects of Hoggies. So fun to play with them in the wild!

Dave had a school group of 150 kids and he'd found an Eastern Hoggie while he had them out on a prarie hike. And 150 times that Hoggie rolled over and played dead!

The one he found and used in his snake presentation, he got his face down in the Hoggy's face and that little mother wouldn't even do the closed-mouth-strike! Play dead? FORGET IT!

Hoggies. You GOTTA love'um!

[drache]

mine does the puff, hiss,and strike thing when he's about go into shed
I guess he feels more insecure then; PSS - pre-shed syndrome
yeah, he becomes hissy

[GartersRock]

Mine hoods and hisses. But never plays dead. I wish I could see one play dead in person.

[tyflier]

sschind-

I wouldn't say I have "more" experience...just "different" experiences. I certainly don't claim to be the most knowledgeable king keeper around, and absolutely my experiences could vary from yours without either of us being "wrong".

As for L.m.m....the entire complex is in constant flux. San Luis Potosi kings are a locality, like a Langtry or Highway 277 alterna. I have always referred to "generic" mex mex as Mexican Mt. Kings or Mex Mex, just to avoid locality confusion. That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong...common names change from place to place. Heck, some people call a Scarlet King a Scarlet Milk...and both are technically correct, as it is a triangulum ssp.

Even more, some people still classify alterna as a ssp. of the mexicana complex, which, to my knowledge, hasn't been so for a number of years, taxonomically, even though range maps would indicate that it is still a Mexican kingsnake.

C'est la Vie...the nature of taxonomy...

As for beginner snakes...I have had my share of tribulations with thayeri, greeri, and alterna. Certainly once they become established as strong feeders, they typically do well. But I have had troubles with these subspecies, even as "established" adults, that I wouldn't wish on an enemy. That is the reason for my post. Not to say you are wrong...just a different perspective and point of view.

And I am of the opinion that a topic like this deserves to have as many opinions as possible to give the OP as many otions as possible. And every opinion is a good one. As you said above...ANY species can be a GREAT beginner species, providing the proper care requirements are met. On the flip side of that coin...I know people that have killed cornsnakes because of bad husbandry. It all comes down to husbandry, and how well the snakes are cared for. Do the right thing for the snake, and it will thrive, regardless of the amount of experience a keeper has or the species of the snake.

Heck, I know people that have been successful with retics and wild caught hoggies as their first snake. It's just a matter of knowing the species and it's needs...