Califor. King Snake

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Agreed with the above: always use a cell phone, never disclose where you live, and always get a signed release form. And always pull an animal out of a terrible situation-- because there is plenty of help out there to teach you how to care for it, or a sanctuary to be found. You don't get a second chance to save something.

This is how I work when I do rescues. The people don't see where I live, they dont get my house number, and they don't get their snake back once it's healthy!

[guidofatherof5]

The way it looks I won't be getting the snake. No call from the lady. I appreciate everyones input. Thanks

[adamanteus]

This thread certainly did get a little out of hand for a while there, but there is a good and valid point that it being glossed over...... There is no such thing as a 'standard' colubrid.
This may well be a phrase used in the US pet trade to describe the three genera mentioned, but this is not a US forum, it's a world-wide forum. I have never heard the phrase used by serious minded keepers here in the UK, and I've been keeping reptiles for over 40 years. If there were a 'standard', it would surely be a tropical arboreal form, which probably make up the largest single group within the colubrids.
More over, if a person doesn't know how to keep a Cali King (arguably one of the easiest of snakes to care for), they are probably not going to gain much insight from a phrase such as 'standard colubrid care'. Plus this phrase would be very misleading for our innumerable non US members, who are not au fait with American slang, and may well have to translate into their own language.
Anyway, that's not really the point.... When I raised the issue, it wasn't inaccurate terminology I was trying to highlight..... It was the fact that so many people set themselves up as would be rescuers, when they have too little knowledge (or amenities) to care for their rescues. This is how so many large pythons end up living in 6 foot tanks etc. Loving snakes is not enough.
In my view, if you don't already know the captive care of a Cali King, you're not ready or able to be a rescuer of 'any snake'.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to disagree with you James. I respect your opinion and hope you do mine. My abilities can many times be far better than the care they are recieving. I am trying to keep some snakes from being put to death. My continued eduaction is an ongoing process but waiting until it's adaquate may not be good timing for some snakes. My reason for the thread was because I do care and needed advice from people who are more in the know. I am not wearing my heart on my sleeve. I don't consided myself unable to rescue "any" snake. I have done so in the past with great results. Relocating and finding great homes with caring people for these snakes. Thanks for your thoughts.

[adamanteus]

Of course I respect your opinion, and I respect what you're trying to do.... I was merely reiterating what I said to you earlier in the thread, and pointing out that 'standard care' isn't the most enlightening of responses to one who doesn't know the care of a Cali King, in an effort to bring the thread back to where it started.
My remarks about rescuing aren't aimed specifically at you, but you must understand what I mean about huge pythons in tiny tanks? It happens all the time.

[infernalis]

I have seen too many photos of Burms and Retics shoved into 4-6 foot enclosures, folded over on themselves for lack of room.

Yes that is sad, Yet unthinking folks who must have that "impressive" snake get in way over their heads time after time...

I have always found Anacondas fascinating, but until I could have a 20 foot by 20 foot paddock that would make a zoo proud, I'll pass on even trying to keep one.

[adamanteus]

It is that very stench that keeps me away from most other forums...... Forums where everyone is a self-professed expert, and the degree of knowledge is measured by the quantity (or value) of snakes they have acquired. Where novices are ignored, or given two-word answers. Where if the answer isn't known, they will invent one or use a 'catch-phrase' to cover their ignorance. Where everyone is a 'reptile rescue'.

With no other group of animals would a novice be encouraged to take on 'any species'. So many times I have seen these rescuers swamped by huge numbers of unwanted animals, which they have neither the money, knowledge or equipment to care for. So many times I have seen the animals seized from these well-meaning but ill-advised people. Very subtle of you to pass over my comment about huge pythons in tiny enclosures, by the way. You know this to be the truth.... this is what happens, it is the unfortunate fate of most of the amateur reptile rescues I have seen.

I don't think I was in any way insulting to Steve, I simply stated my opinion, which is what a forum is all about. If you post on it, someone is bound to disagree. You speak of arrogance, but you have brought to this forum a degree of arrogance and aggression which we haven't seen for a long time. Some people do react that way when others disagree with them. They resort to insults and name calling.

This forum isn't, and never will be elitist. It welcomes, with equal warmth, experienced keepers and novices alike. Maybe you should spend a little more time reading the forum, and gather some experience of us, before you judge us.

[tyflier]

This thread, and your response, along with Stefan-A, are the very definitions of arrogance. The guy came and asked for help on caring for a Cali King...arguably one of the easiest snakes to care for in captivity. Why is it one of the easiest? Because they thrive in a variety of natural conditions...like most North American Colubrids, ironically enough. This fact alone makes there general care requirements EXTREMELY easy to meet.

We aren't talking about special needs animals. We aren't talking about large pythons and boas. We aren't talking about specialists and habitat-specific animals. We are talking about the "garbage disposals" of the snake world when we talk about *most* N.A. colubrids. They absolutely THRIVE under such an incredibly diverse natural environment, that a general average can be given to them in captivity and they can thrive and be incredibly healthy. This is why they are found throughout the country, AND why they are so popular as pets.

Telling someone that simply because they don't know how to care for a Cali king means they aren't experienced enough to rescue one is arrogant, no matter how many differnt ways you try to paint it. The answer to the question is simple...about 80-85*F on one side and room temp on the other of a 20long aquairum. 50% relative humidity. Two hides, a water dish and a suitable substrate. Feed it about once a week. It will thrive. Any other "issues" that come up need to be dealt with as they arise, certainly. But those issues WON'T be husbandry related if you follow those basic and easy guidelines.

Ironically enough...those same guidelines can be applied to almost all N.A. Colubrids, but especially to the ones falling into the Lampropeltis, Pituophis, and Pantherophis genera of snakes...which make up the largest percentage of the snakes available in the pet trade. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Do I get aggressive? No...I stand up for myself. I also stand up for others. Does that make some people uncomfortable? Probably, but that really isn't my problem.

Quite simply...you failed in your efforts. The responses coming from yourself and Stefan-A in this thread are INCREDIBLY arrogant. I agree with you on self-professed experts being a detriment. I agree that newbies and experienced keepers alike should be welcome in the hobby. I agree with you that there are far too many forums floating around the net where those things don't happen.

Problem is...you and Stefan-A, in THIS thread, are doing the exact same disservice to the hobby. You two are acting in the exact same manner, and treating the original poster in the same manner you profess to despise.

There really is no reason for Stefan-A to have been arguing the way he has been. Heck, half of his arguments, I have to wonder if he even understood what was being said, because it doesn't seem so. Either that or he is following definitions that are so strict they don't allow room for communication. That's arrogant.

Forcing people interested in a HOBBY to follow the strictest of scientific definitions during a non-scientific discussion is arrogant. And it is elitist. Tell yourself whatever you'd like to feel better about it, but that is a fact.

Have I seen this attitude displayed elsewhere on this forum? Yea...I have. Guess by whom? Does it run rampant on this forum as it does on others? Nope. But it is still present. And it still rears it's ugly head from time to time. At least there are only a couple people that do it, though...

As for your reptile rescues comments and the like...I agree with you. I agree that there should be Regulations put in place for the operation of these facilities. Where I live...there are. Before I can open MY rescue, I need to have a state Propogation Permit, a resident Vet Tech on staff, and I need to have a state sanctioned Rehabilition License and Certification. We're still working on it, but we're getting there. My propogation permit will be finalized in January of '09. My partner and girlfriend is in the process of reciveing her Vet Tech certification and rehabilitation certification. Together we will open a rehab center for NATIVE species and a living museum for educational purposes. And you can bet that every person that walks through the door will be treated with respect, regardless of how many big words they know, how long they have been keeping snakes, or how many different species of obscure snake they have dealt with...until they no,longer deserve that respect.

Yea, it bothers me to see people taking in more animals than they can handle, and not knowing the difference between rescuing and forcing an animal to live. Yea, it bothers me to see people jump into the hobby without a real understanding of these animals. Yea, it pains me to see people having owned snakes for all of 2 months trying to breed them. So what. It happens, and there isn't a whole lot I can do about it except shake my head, and wait to read the inevitable "My snake died" thread.

Yes, it bothers me to see people caring for high-maintenance animals improperly. Yes, I would like it to stop. But treating people with disdain for their efforts, and forcing people into a battle of definitions and semantics for no reason other than to appear more knowledgeable isn't a solution to the problem. In fact, it only perpetuates the problem by turning beginners and would-be beginners against us. It turns people away from the hobby and makes them afraid to ask questions.

You can say what you want about me, and you can pat yourself on the back all you care to. But this thread is NOT what you intended this forum to be. This thread, and the attitudes displayed by yourself and Stefan-A are precisely the attitudes you claim to be so against.

C'est la vie. It's your forum. Do with it as you will...

[Stefan-A]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the benefit of insulting someone who is trying to help

Yet you seem to go out of your way to do it. I wonder if you appreciate the fact that I haven't been returning your insults?

Forcing people interested in a HOBBY to follow the strictest of scientific definitions during a non-scientific discussion is arrogant.

Strictest? How about even the loosest definitions?

As for the rest of that inane drivel you've posted; Opinion noted.

[adamanteus]

It would appear you haven't read my posts in this thread, Chris. I already stated quite clearly that Cali Kings are simple to care for. The point I plainly made was that if a person does not understand this simple care, it might be a mistake to advertise his or her willingness to take in 'any unwanted snakes'.... (not my words!) In which case we very probably are taking about large pythons and boas or animals with special husbandry needs. I certainly never suggested he wasn't fit to take in this Cali King.
I stand by what I said... if a person doesn't have the knowledge or experience to care for a Cali King, it would be unwise to offer husbandry services for any unwanted snake.
As far as I can glean from the rest of your post, you seem to agree with me on all other matters.
I have re-read my posts, and I fail to find the arrogance you accuse me of. If I have offended Steve in the way I worded my reply, I apologise to him for that, but I stand by the content of the reply.
And by the way.... it's not my forum! It belongs to us all.