Post pics of your anery red sideds?

[Jeff B]

"people have been breeding morphs for decades now its not a new science...when you have an albino with yellow(like the ball python)it takes an axanthic to prduce a snow...when you have an albino with red(like a corn)then it takes an anery to produce a snow."
Quote from Joe above
Joe I think you just talked yourself into and verified the justification of the red-sided and plains anerys being called anerys and not melanistic right there. The red-sided albinos have tons of reds and oranges, and when you combine the ANERY gene, that red is completely gone in the resulting SNOW, clear evidence that the ANERY gene has taken the REDs (ery=red, anery=red taken away). I personally could be more on the fence with calling the plains or red-sided anery vs axanthic, since there is also yellows in addition taken away from the red-sided and plains albinos, but it is definately not a best fit to be called melanistic.
The eastern SNOW is not really a snow, if we use the strict definition of a snow is the combo of anery and albino, then it's a melanistic albino combo and part of the reason it is a "dirty" snow is that the Shuett albino is a "dirty" T+albino so it is not a completely melanine destroyed gene like the Iowa albino or the red-sided albino and the other reason is that the melanistic eastern gene wipes out the pattern so you see the dirty T+ albinos purplish/brownish smeared all over.
I think part of what makes these terms contriversial in the garter snake world and confuses us all is that these garter snake genes by appearance don't really fall tightly into the conventional corn snake categories, the garter axanthic/anery genes exibit a crisp black color which could just be just the result of stripping other brown making color pigments leaving only crisp black, (remember reds and greens mixed make brown) or could be the result of those other colors being stripped away AND an increase in melanin. Also garters may produce unique pigments that make greens and blues, that corns and balls have none of. One reason why garters are WAAAAAY more colorful, and have way more different colored morphs, species, subspecies, polymorphic traits, ect that any other snake on the planet.
It's going to be interesting to see what the eastern melanistic gene does in combination with a more wiped out melanin albino (likely T-) like the florida albino. My guess is that you will still see the solid pattern aspect of the melanistic gene in the florida albino melanistic, but that the melanistic gene will not strip or take away any of the yellow from the florida albino, so it will be a solid "dirty" yellowish snake rather than the "dirty" purplish/brownish of the Schuett albino melanistic, and maybe neither snake really desirves to be called a snow, but what we call any of these genes or gene combos, its all symantics really anyway IMHO and either way I think we should just respect the initial call of the person that had the right and priveledge to name them in the first place and just stick with it, it's just easier that way.
You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I definitely agree with having respect for whoever named the morph, but if you name a morph after a scientific term such as anerythristic, it does kinda open yourself up to scrutiny from everyone because it's not an original name. It's a word borrowed from the textbooks. Not so much in our little garter corner, but in other hobbies, like the milk snakes and python hobbies, people get really serious about it when you use terms like that. You can name your morph hypo, because it's your new morph to name, but then a bunch of guys gang up on you and yell at you because they think you are wrong and that it's T+ albino. Regardless, I see both sides of the argument and I understand that Scott does not wish to debate it because he named the morph anery and that's that. But I can also see why people ask questions, and there is nothing wrong with not blindly accepting what you are told at face value. That is why we all have opinions. And remember, the names we give these morphs, that is all they are is a personal opinion from someone who took their best educated guess. There's just no way anyone can claim to be totally right as we have NO data to prove the pigments we say are affected are being affected the way we say they are. Heck, do we even know exactly what types of pigments garters have? It is certainly more extensive than other types of snakes as Jeff has pointed out.

It is good to question things and to test our fellow hobbyist, even if it means testing their patience at times. Debating is healthy as long as people can remain mature about it. Nobody is going to agree on everything 100% of the time, and if we all did, this hobby would be no fun. As we learn more, things will change, and that is inevitable.

I can say one thing, if I did close my eyes and envision my own personal version of an "anery" red sided, it would look a lot like The Golden Redsided. in fact, that's exactly what I feel it would look like.

Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters

In my opinion, there would not be a better descriptive term for that animal than anery.

[Scott F]

Jaff makes some very salient points regarding the snows. The red sided and plains snows were both created by breeding anerys to albinos and breeding the resulting double hets back to one another. Is anyone questioning that these are not snows ? By the creation of the snows, this unequivocably proves out the genetics of the parents (ie true anerythristics). Hard to justify arguing this point but whoever wants to, is welcome to.

I've touched on this a while back but as far as naming snakes, the breeder has the luxury of creating names for new morphs that he/she produces. This is one of the cool things about our hobby that makes it fun !!

Scott

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Jaff makes some very salient points regarding the snows. The red sided and plains snows were both created by breeding anerys to albinos and breeding the resulting double hets back to one another. Is anyone questioning that these are not snows ? By the creation of the snows, this unequivocably proves out the genetics of the parents (ie true anerythristics). Hard to justify arguing this point but whoever wants to, is welcome to.

I've touched on this a while back but as far as naming snakes, the breeder has the luxury of creating names for new morphs that he/she produces. This is one of the cool things about our hobby that makes it fun !!

Scott

I don't think that anyone is questioning the validity of them being snows, especially since even though classically the term for a snow means albino/anerythristic, we are finding that mixing other morphs with albino produces the same "snow" effect. Like if you breed a melanistic eastern to a strain Of t negative albino, you are going to get a very "snowy looking" snake. Even if these redsided/plains were called melanistics in the first place, I am sure the resulting albino crosses would have still been referred to as snows. Getting a "snowy looking" baby doesn't prove that they are anerythristics, (not arguing, just saying it isn't proof) it just proves that the mutation removes much of the pigment. But the same affect could be achieved with the easterns which are DEFINITELY melanistic.

[Scott F]

Hey Shannon,

The goldens's trait has not been replicated in several breedings (breeding F1's to F1's and the golden male to F1 female offspring). This doesn't disprove that it is not some form of anerythristic, but makes the chances it is remote at best. This snake is for sale now but if he doesn't sell, I will breed him to the albino next year to prove (or disprove) this theory. It could actually make for an interesting project, sometimes breeding one morph to a different one(s) can produce different results too. I will breed him too this Iowa albino red sided if this albino's het male is not breeder size by next Spring.

Scott

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hey Shannon,

The goldens's trait has not been replicated in several breedings (breeding F1's to F1's and the golden male to F1 female offspring). This doesn't disprove that it is not some form of anerythristic, but makes the chances it is remote at best. This snake is for sale now but if he doesn't sell, I will breed him to the albino next year to prove (or disprove) this theory. It could actually make for an interesting project, sometimes breeding one morph to a different one(s) can produce different results too. I will breed him too this Iowa albino red sided if this albino's het male is not breeder size by next Spring.

Scott

Aww well that stinks! I thought it said there were gold babies born but i am guessing they colored up? And Wow! Is that a t positive red sided????? Omg. I neeeeeeed one of those.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Jeff we have had this conversation a million times and you know my point of view on this subject and you know its not gonna change so this was for the people who havent heard it yet and the points i made are facts i wasnt attacking ANYONE and if i offended someone with my red white and blue opinion i appalogize but i hope i got some wheels turning out there.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

There is no reason anyone should be offended...

[BUSHSNAKE]

The points have already been made, would you like to tell me what i said thats untrue?

[BUSHSNAKE]

you and jeff love gaining up on me...no problem bring it Scott and Jeff