Wild tetrataenia

[ConcinusMan]

ok then, the massasauga, the snake that started this is highly protected, the laws in wisconsin are the same in Illinois(where im at)they exsist is such small poulations and are extremely fragile...you can not just show up and take pictures like you can with the SF garter or the moutain king as stated by Richard, thats a fact not my opinion

OK then would you like to explain any laws that might be broken by taking photographs? Are the lands off limits to pedestrians/hikers? No. I don't think so. In fact, I know of one location that in spite of "protections" a walking path was built in such a location that walkers often encounter this snake on the path. The very building of the path put them at risk. I suppose it's illegal to break out a camera and photograph one that happens to be crossing the trail? Of course not.

I think you're wrong Joe. There may very well be locations that have protections (laws) in place to prevent such disturbances, and to prevent people from coming in and disturbing the snakes in any way but that's irrelevant. There are plenty of other locations and ways to photograph them without breaking any laws.

To say there is no legal way to get photos of these rattlesnakes is bullshyster. I think that would be highly dependent on location and method of acquiring such photos. Even with the other two snakes I mentioned, there are locations where this is possible and locations that are strictly off-limits.

[RedSidedSPR]

I was under the impression you could look, not touch... You could take all the photos you want, as long as you don't touch/disturb them...

do NOT quote me. thats just what i thought.

[guidofatherof5]

The "disturb" brush has a wide stroke and can be interpreted in many different ways.
Many laws are left broad in scope and left to the individual officer to interpret.
Which means one person many get a citation/ticket/arrest when another doesn't.
I'm not saying it's fair but it can happen this way.

[brain]

The "disturb" brush has a wide stroke and can be interpreted in many different ways.
Many laws are left broad in scope and left to the individual officer to interpret.
Which means one person many get a citation/ticket/arrest when another doesn't.
I'm not saying it's fair but it can happen this way.

Very true Steve and some laws need to more clear to John-Q. But to sschind posted that “The DNR threatened to arrest him and made the website remove the pictures.” That is what I have issues with, sounds like to me the guy had pictures of, and endangered species and for that you can get arrested? We spent years in the service of the pubic to protect rights not to hinder them.

Now “if” the guy obtained the photos by illegally, i.e. “flipping” or otherwise destorying habbitat and it law states this cannot be done in that area, then by all means prosecute. But how can one, as Richard said, “Tell how the photo was obtained.”

As put by Didymus20X6 What happened to the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"?

But Joe, I ask you, do really believe that it is ok, or not ok to post pictures of endangered species?

[ConcinusMan]

I think this might be why Joe gave a call today which I missed. I think this thread prompted his call. I noticed he doesn't get too involved in heated or passionate discussions here but we've had some damn good ones on the phone.

You've heard my opinion though. The officer, if quoted correctly, overstepped his authority. It's an empty threat. I do not have any problem with legally walking onto lands without breaking any laws and taking photos of the animals. I believe good photos can be obtained without doing any harm to the animals, and without breaking the law.

Heck, some of the best "in the field" photos I got of snakes only involved me walking down established paths in a park, early on a very cool morning when the snakes first begin to come out and bask. The snakes were still cold and reluctant to move. I approach slowly and take photos. The snakes don't seem to mind.

But Joe, I ask you, do really believe that it is ok, or not ok to post pictures of endangered species?

I know I'm not Joe, but of course it's OK. It's all in how the photos were obtained. I don't think it's OK to "flip" natural hides for them. I don't think it's OK to trespass to get them. I don't think it's OK to menace or molest the animals to get them, or to disturb or damage habitat, regardless of whether it's legal or not.


I know this isn't a snake, but I didn't have to trespass, break any laws, or significantly disturb the animals to get this shot. Patience pays off with persistence and good timing. Any photos worth having are worth getting in a way that does no harm and doesn't break any laws. This lizard seemed unconcerned with my presence mere feet away and finished his meal in peace. Now, had this been a critically endangered species and some officer threatened me and told me to take it down, I would most certainly go tell him to go take a flying leap. Right on the other side of those rocks would be perfect. It's nearly a straight down 75 foot drop.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

Originally Posted by brain
But Joe, I ask you, do really believe that it is ok, or not ok to post pictures of endangered species?

Im not Joe either but I would like to say something..... If people take pics and dont desturb anything while doing it I see no problem. If "they" want us to watch out for endangered animals then pictures are a good thing to know what not to bother or be careful of. Sometimes people discribe something instead of showing pics but AI honostly have to se a pic to know what is talked about exactly. Plus I like to see pics of the beautiful animals no matter if they are endanged or not.I take pictures of EVERYTHING....lol yopu never know what you can catch on camera.

[Mrs N1ntndo]

[/QUOTE]

I love that pic. Thats awesome thank you for sharing. Just think I have never seen this and if someone took pics away then I might never see this in my life. I think this is an awesome pic.

[sauceman]

Wow, quite a discussion arose from my pics. This is the same discussion that I have had, both online and off, with many other field herpers. This comes up a lot with regard to the montane rattlesnake species of Arizona.

There is certainly a degree of interpretation within the language of the laws and it can be difficult to agree. Ultimately, these laws are for the protection of the animal. Morally, I have absolutely no issues as I know that I would do more to protect these animals than most people, including those that work for the agencies that protect them. I have told people in the past that, if I won $300 million in the Powerball, I would buy land and create a private tetrataenia reserve.

I can say that I could count on my hands the people on this planet that I would share a tetrataenia spot with. Those people include one noted herpetology professor, a couple of published authors, and a few individuals that I have known and evaluated for years. If people want to put in their work, they could find them on their own. There are even parks that have signs posted in the parking lot that say "watch out for endangered snakes" and feature an illustration of a SFG. A quick search online will tell you that these animals only occur in San Mateo County and will mention specific locations where there are remaining populations.

The animals shown were found in the open, basking around ponds. None were flipped. Most darted into the water too quickly to photo, especially after things warmed up. I will say that a couple of leisurely laps around the pond would have yielded several sightings for all but the most oblivious of people (and maybe some Major League Baseball umpires).

[BUSHSNAKE]

the only people i know from this area that have seen a massasauga in the wild are in the age group 50+...their numbers are so low 99.9% of their habitat is protected(off limits)do they show up on private land, maybe, maybe not, no ones talking...conservation efforts are hardcore in these parts, the subject may even be taboo, ive lived in this area my whole life and have herped almost every bit of illinois, ive never seen a massasauga in the wild and probably never will...and theyre out there and i myself would kill to see one but laws are protecting them very well, you need special permision and you better know somebody if you show up cuz if you dont it wont be good...and thats just how it is...

[ConcinusMan]

I love that pic. Thats awesome thank you for sharing. Just think I have never seen this and if someone took pics away then I might never see this in my life. I think this is an awesome pic.

And I had never, EVER before in my life seen a collard lizard in person, in the field, and THIS is what I find for my first ever collard lizard?!!! One in the middle of eating a mouse! These are truly impressive lizards. They're not very flighty, and just sort of casually stay out of you way, allowing you to get very close. That also makes them very easy to catch. I'm used to trying to catch fence lizards and those are way more difficult. Collard lizards were no problem though. This sucker was about a foot long! Sorry, I did it again. Back to the issue of photographing endangered animals...