My new garter(s)

[mikem]

See the differences? Normally, range would tell you if it's a concinnus or a fitchi but since we don't know where they were found, those differences I just illustrated are how you tell the two apart (fitchi vs. concinnus). It's pretty common for people who don't know about the range of concinnus, to go find a fitchi in Oregon, and assume because it's from Oregon, and has red spots, it must be an oregon red spotted. Well, concinnus doesn't occur in the same areas as fitchi. Generally concinnus is confined to the Willamette Valley and SW WA. Fitchi is found in the rest of Oregon and eastern WA where concinnus does not occur.

Like I said, looking at the laterals and underside, I'm thinking they are both Valley garters. Laterally striped concinnus' do not have light undersides, (with the exception of the throat area) and the lateral stripes are usually a different color. Sort of bluish, and the edge isn't well defined.

With all that said, I think that Stefan was right all along. Those are fitchi laterals on both snakes. Unfortunately, I would say that there are also many fitchi/concinnus mixed breeds out there being sold as concinnus. I've seen plenty of "concinnus" for sale that sure do look like concinnus' but they aren't like any pure concinnus you can find in the wild.

like i said in the original post, the vendor i purchased them from said they were indeed wild caught from oregon. he had another female, but i decided not to get her because she had some scarring and the last inch or so of her tail was missing. and since you said that concinnus and fitchi aren't in the same area, i don't think either would be mixed.

are you talking about people unintentionally breeding fitchi/concinnus' in captivity and selling them as "concinnus"? or do they share a range somewhere and may naturally intergrade?

[ConcinusMan]

are you talking about people unintentionally breeding fitchi/concinnus' in captivity and selling them as "concinnus"? or do they share a range somewhere and may naturally intergrade?

Yes to the first question. You can see how it was confusing to I.D. the snakes. If I knew exact location where it was found, I wouldn't have any trouble identifying them myself, but this wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last time I've seen snakes mislabeled or sold as concinnus when they weren't. These two species would readily interbreed in captivity. This leads me to believe that some concinnus' bred in captivity aren't necessarily pure and could have other similar subspecies in their bloodlines. Anyway, fitchi are very widespread in Oregon, including the desert climate east of the Cascade range, while concinnus' are confined to the NW portion of Oregon and the Willamette Valley. Fitchi just aren't found in that area. They prefer a drier climate such as eastern Oregon and WA where concinnus do not occur.

The Columbia River Gorge cuts a "path" of sorts through the cascade range. This creates a break in the mountain barrier. Travel from west to east (forest gives way to desert as you go east) through the gorge and there is small intergrade zone as you leave concinnus' range and begin to enter fitchi's range but the overlap area is very small. In the climate transition zone in the Gorge, sometimes you can find desert species farther west than they would normally occur.

[mikem]

Awesome! So a pair of fitchi it is Thanks for yet another informative post! I'm glad to finally know what I have!

[GarterGuy17]

Nice snakes

[mikem]

here's a couple more headshots of the female. too cold to go outside and no sun for a couple days

[kibakiba]

Looks like my Snappy.

[mikem]

Basically what im asking is do concinnus and fitchi intergrade in Oregon. I want to breed but don't want to make intergrades or hybrids. If you think the female is an intergrade then I wont breed her.

[kibakiba]

To me, it's a normal concinnus. I'm not sure what an intergrade would look like, but she does look perfectly like a concinnus.

[ConcinusMan]

To me, it's a normal concinnus. I'm not sure what an intergrade would look like, but she does look perfectly like a concinnus.

Again, there are subtle clues I pointed out above that tells me they are not typical of laterally striped concinnus'.

And mikem, an intergrade isn't necessarily a hybrid. It just means there's an area of overlap in the natural range, and snakes in that zone share some physical traits of both subspecies. If you were to cross the two subspecies in captivity, that wouldn't be an intergrade. It would be a hybrid. Intergrade just refers to snakes found in nature that live in an area of overlap and share features consistent with both subspecies. It doesn't mean that those snakes are necessarily hybrids, although the two could be naturally interbreeding in that overlap (intergrade) zone.

With that said, it's possible that these snakes were found in the intergrade zone. Like I said it's a very small area in the Gorge, right on the eastern most edge of concinnus' range, and the western edge of fitchi's range.

It is possible that these niether fit the description of concinnus completely, nor fitchi completely or neatly. Either way, they are definitely Oregon T. sirtalis. The subspecies I.D. could be debated forever but not proven. Exact location where they were found would be helpful.

[mikem]

haha, this makes my head hurt! why can't it just be simple it would be the snakes i purchase.. lol

most likely i will see the vendor again this spring or summer. and he usually has a small group of red spotted garters from oregon. i'm assuming he gets them from the same person and probably collected in the same general area. if he's there, i'll ask about collection location.

are you comfortable calling these fitchi based on what i've shown you? i just don't want to mislead anyone if i let them breed. or would you recommend holding off on that all together?