Ranch News

[jwolfe152]

ok wow i for some dumb *** reason i thought it was only state endangered not federally but i have not looked into it much so...but thanks for the info i know a little more than yesterday now

[ConcinusMan]

ok wow i for some dumb *** reason i thought it was only state endangered not federally but i have not looked into it much so...but thanks for the info i know a little more than yesterday now

Nope. They're Federally listed. However, marcianus is on California's state threatened list. That's the main reason that garters are illegal to collect in Riverside County. There's only a small but stable population of checkered garters in California, in east Riverside county. They can only be found in an oasis/riparian zone habitat out there in the middle of the desert.

And Steve, this is what I was talking about. "The captive population, once thriving in the 1990's, went extinct in 2003 when the last remaining snake in captivity died at the San Francisco Zoo, where they were once considered the jewels of the collection." I do believe they are back at the zoo now and the snakes they have now were imported from the Netherlands. Genetically speaking they are useless for breed and release but for zoo specimens/education they are perfect since they can't collect them from the wild to be kept permanently in captivity. The snakes in Europe are descended from the same captive snakes that the zoo allowed to go extinct in 2003 and those are descended from legally collected (by the zoo) snakes before they went on the endangered list in the 1960's.. Feature Stories, San Francisco Garter Snake Returns To Its Namesake City

[guidofatherof5]

Nope. They're Federally listed. However, marcianus is on California's state threatened list. That's the main reason that garters are illegal to collect in Riverside County. There's only a small but stable population of checkered garters in California, in east Riverside county. They can only be found in an oasis/riparian zone habitat out there in the middle of the desert.

And Steve, this is what I was talking about. "The captive population, once thriving in the 1990's, went extinct in 2003 when the last remaining snake in captivity died at the San Francisco Zoo, where they were once considered the jewels of the collection." I do believe they are back at the zoo now and the snakes they have now were imported from the Netherlands. Genetically speaking they are useless for breed and release but for zoo specimens/education they are perfect since they can't collect them from the wild to be kept permanently in captivity. The snakes in Europe are descended from the same captive snakes that the zoo allowed to go extinct in 2003 and those are descended from legally collected (by the zoo) snakes before they went on the endangered list in the 1960's.. Feature Stories, San Francisco Garter Snake Returns To Its Namesake City

I have to take issue with that statement with regards to T. marcianus - Checkered garter.

According to this current pdf. They can be collected.

California Laws Regarding Reptiles and Amphibians

The following was cut and pasted from the regulation pdf above.

5.60. Reptiles. (Page 20-22)


(a) General Provisions: Only the following reptiles may be taken under the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the restrictions in this section. No sportfishing license is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake, but bag and possession limits do apply. No reptiles shall be taken from ecological reserves designated by the commission in Section 630 or from state parks, or national parks or monuments.

(b) Limit: The limit for each of the species listed below is two, unless otherwise provided. Limit, as used in this section, means daily bag and possession limit.


(43) Common garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis), except San Francisco garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia) and South Coast garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis sp.): See Special Closure (f )(10)
(44) Terrestrial garter snake (Thamnophis elegans)
(45) Western aquatic (Sierra) garter snake (Thamnophis couchii)
(46) Pacific coast aquatic garter snake (Thamnophis atratus)
(47) Northwestern garter snake (Thamnophis ordinoides)
(48) Checkered garter snake (Thamnophis marcianus)

This link also states that this snake in not list as a special concern.
Thamnophis marcianus marcianus - Marcy's Checkered Gartersnake

Conservation Status
The following status listings come from the Special Animals List which is published by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. This snake is not included on the Special Animals List, which indicates that there are no significant conservation concerns for it in California.
Organization	Status Listing
U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA)	None
California Endangered Species Act (CESA)	None
California Department of Fish and Wildlife	None
Bureau of Land Management	None
USDA Forest Service	None
Natureserve Global Conservation Status Ranks
World Conservation Union - IUCN Red List

[jwolfe152]

ok what if an individual had collected a handful of them in say the 50's (in the U.S.) and bred them and still has a good population of them would it still be illegal for him to have them or to sell them? i dont know anyone who has them its just an odd question that popped in my head

[ConcinusMan]

ok what if an individual had collected a handful of them in say the 50's (in the U.S.) and bred them and still has a good population of them would it still be illegal for him to have them or to sell them?

Yes. Once they were listed on the Federal endangered species list they became contraband for anyone posessing them in the U.S. or it's territories. The Problem is there's no way of knowing if that snake you have was illegally collected or if it is captive bred descendent of legally collected animals.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think there is a "grandfather clause" for federally protected species.

[jwolfe152]

i done a google search for "Federally Protected species grandfather clause" and there is one according to this document on page one "https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...51156542,d.aWM" this link will download the document only

i dont know how official it is or if it only is in regards to primates

[ConcinusMan]

That's odd that they even put it on the list. They only occur where it's not legal to collect garters, or any other reptile for that matter. It's illegal to collect any reptiles fro Riverside or San Diego counties. It's possible with the recent changes that marcianus is no longer considered threatened. However, unless riverside county lifted their ban on collecting reptiles, then it doesn't matter of California allows collecting them. If you can only find them in a county where collecting is illegal, then good luck collecting any legally.

[guidofatherof5]

I just searched San Diego and Riverside Co. home pages and can't find anything mentioning Thamnophis marcianus - Checekered Garter. Plenty about Thamnophis hammondii (Two-Striped Garter Snake).
Help me out here Richard. Do you have a link to the code section because I'm just not seeing/finding it.
Can you send me a PM as this thread has gotten far off the tracks

[jwolfe152]

sorry bout that

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

How are they doing, good i hope?