5 gal. tank?

[RedSidedSPR]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

------------

If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

Very fair question. If you don't like healthy snakes, you can't like snakes. Don't tell me you starve your snakes for your own enjoyment.

[RedSidedSPR]

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Ouch. Nice one. Kidding. But I do agree with Richard. They do have emotions, and they have more intelligence than you might think. Not saying you don't know what you're talking about, and I respect your opinion, but...
And I do think Dogs are more intelligence than snakes. Maybe not an early-stage puppy, though. And yes they display fear and anger. Emotions. Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS. (arguing is a hobby for me, as with Richard, don't take it personal.)

[Sonya610]

Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS.

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.

[Stefan-A]

I have a hard time believing that 1/100 snakes are kept successfully in a rack system.

That's a misrepresentation of what I was saying. 1/100 was an example of an extreme, but not impossible scenario. It could just as well have been 99/100 and it would still apply.

If someone has gone to the effort of having a rack system it's generally because they have a large number or are breeding. In either case the owner knows enough about the animal to understand basic husbandry and follow through on its basic needs.

Not relevant to what I was commenting on. Also, it has no effect on the enclosure's properties, which was the subject. Skill can compensate for deficient solutions and make them seem "as good as, or better than" the alternative solution. So the skill is irrelevant to the discussion.

The idea that the snake would die simply because it doesn't have a large cage with branches logs and rocks is simply ******** if I'm going to be honest.

Not what I was talking about.

In terms of dismissing other cases, I'm not at all.

I'm not saying you are, I'm saying that it can't be ruled out in cases like this. It's a simple fact that it is something that people do without realizing it. The implication is of course that when it hasn't been properly investigated, all statements on the topic might as well start with the abbreviation "IMO".

I've seen baby snakes in racks die because they don't eat, but then again, baby snakes die all the time, some never start to eat regardless of conditions.

I agree. I'm sure you're not suggesting that there can be no difference in how frequently it happens under different conditions.

However, look at the people who keep snakes in tubs/racks,

No, don't look at the people. Those are variables that need to be eliminated if you're going to make a comparison between housing solutions.

they do so because they have the large number and understand the snake.

I agree with the first part, but the second does not follow. It may be the case, but I've seen enough nitwits with large quantities of snakes, often but not always housed in racks, to understand that the two are not necessarily connected.

Look at how many ****** middle class individuals go out and purchase a fancy cage, fancy lights, heat pad, this and that,

Or 50 snakes and a rack. That's another reason to not take the keeper into consideration when you compare enclosures.

Give 2 super experienced keepers 10 baby garter snakes, one with racks, one with large terrariums/enclosures,

I haven't done the calculations of how many individuals would be needed in experiments like this, but I'm pretty sure 10 isn't nearly enough. An experiment wouldn't have much validity with a sample size that small. You might need to add a zero or two to detect a statistically significant difference.

in both situations the snakes will end up about the same, because the factors determining the snakes healthiness are simple: food, water, heat, humidity, light. Nothing else matters or will define how well the snake grows or lives.

That would be a hypothesis that a person would set out to disprove by setting up the experiment and tossing in a variable, such as the enclosure type.

If you want to argue a puppy kept in a house with toys will develop better than a puppy in a cage sure, I'm all for that, however, puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake.

Intelligence isn't necessarily key.

And just to make my position clear here: My problem is not with racks. I'm perfectly open to the possibility that they may be worse than, as good as, or better than other enclosures. But I want it shown and I will wipe my *** on anecdotes, guesses and beliefs in regards to that question.

[drache]

while I am not in principle opposed to rack systems, I note that I often think of them as appropriate for species I have no experience with, and no desire to keep
I do think they are a great convenience for people who keep large amounts of animals, and they help to provide sanitary conditions in settings where that is needed
however - the argument that snakes don't have the urge to move unless something prompts them is just as anthropomorphic as the claim that they need branches - and perhaps not entirely accidental
according to my vet, obesity is in fact the #1 underlying cause in the majority of disorders affecting captive animals
isn't that because we expect them to live like us? (in cubicles or on a couch, with no exercise or appropriate diet, just as long as there is climate control)
we do all thrive in this setting too, don't we?
this has nothing to do with emotional states - it's basic physiology
in the wild, exercise is a built-in factor of feeding, and on a purely physiological level muscle tone is not entirely irrelevant to metabolism
and - "feelings" aside - there is a case to be made for the option to self-regulate
I don't think it kills a snake to be in a tub, and I don't know that they "miss" stimulation or exercise, and I do have one snake that might as well be housed in a tub
they do become more interesting when given the opportunity to move around; even my much more sedentary kings and hogs do more than lie around between meals

[Millinex]

while I am not in principle opposed to rack systems, I note that I often think of them as appropriate for species I have no experience with, and no desire to keep
I do think they are a great convenience for people who keep large amounts of animals, and they help to provide sanitary conditions in settings where that is needed
however - the argument that snakes don't have the urge to move unless something prompts them is just as anthropomorphic as the claim that they need branches - and perhaps not entirely accidental
according to my vet, obesity is in fact the #1 underlying cause in the majority of disorders affecting captive animals
isn't that because we expect them to live like us? (in cubicles or on a couch, with no exercise or appropriate diet, just as long as there is climate control)
we do all thrive in this setting too, don't we?
this has nothing to do with emotional states - it's basic physiology
in the wild, exercise is a built-in factor of feeding, and on a purely physiological level muscle tone is not entirely irrelevant to metabolism
and - "feelings" aside - there is a case to be made for the option to self-regulate
I don't think it kills a snake to be in a tub, and I don't know that they "miss" stimulation or exercise, and I do have one snake that might as well be housed in a tub
they do become more interesting when given the opportunity to move around; even my much more sedentary kings and hogs do more than lie around between meals

While your vet may say that, he also needs to take into account that the majority of pets he sees, the animals the statistic comes from, are dogs, cats, rodents, horses. Again social animals. While rodents are also prey animals they also have much more complex brains than a snake, which promotes things like problem solving and doing other "things" rather than just hiding.

I fail to see how understanding how a snake works is anthropomorphic? I don't live in a small cubicle or box, no healthy human does. This is because of the simple fact we are a higher thinking being, we require certain stimuli other than the basic needs of life in order to thrive. A healthy human needs mental as well as physical exercise daily, just as primates in a zoo are required to have enrichment items, because they are essential to a healthy animal.

Yes, I agree that exercise and food go hand in hand, the process of finding and catching food; however, from what I've seen and studied, snakes are some of the most efficient predators on earth, and their bodies don't exactly behave in the same way that other animals do. I really don't feel it's acceptable to compare a snake to the majority of the animals that we keep in the pet trade.

Observe your king/hogs in the enclosure. Take a look at what they are doing and study it closely, learn how to read the body language of the snake and what exactly it's after. The funny part is, as I was typing this last night my girlfriends ball python decided to slither out of his hide. Where did he go? He ended up wedging himself up along the upper lip of the showcase cage where he felt more secure, he spent all of about 5 minutes "out" and was quickly back into "hide" mode. He isn't afraid of humans, her cats, anything, however his instincts will tell him to spend his time hiding from possible danger.

-Mike

[drache]

I am not sufficiently invested in the pros and cons of rack systems to carry on in this discussion, but there is one thing you said, Mike, that I wish to address

While your vet may say that, he also needs to take into account that the majority of pets he sees, the animals the statistic comes from, are dogs, cats, rodents, horses.

My vet is a herp vet who sees reptiles as a big part of his practice, and while he likely does see more mammals, just because that's what most people keep, he treats reptiles for herp and turtle rescues, as well as those of the Wildlife Conservation Society - that is the Bronx Zoo. He probably sees more reptiles than your average herp vet, and I would think that majority of them are captive. When he talked about the issue, it was in regards to reptiles.

[Millinex]

Sorry team, I've been out all day and now working on getting a couple new animals squared away, when I get a spare moment I'll reply to the above posts.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow. I'm starting to think this thread was a bad idea Kidding. I'm actually enjoying this. But I'll have to say, I'm on Richard/Chantles, side. I believe they do need exercise and all that. They are not always inactive even if they just ate. I've had my garter eat 12 fish and a nightcrawler, nice and fat, and then go climb on the big tree thing in his 20gal tank. Obviously not hungry. I also think that once they've been in captivity (or in most cases born in captivity) they will lose their fear of being prey. I've seen snakes come up to the glass, begging to be picked up. While that will very likely means he wants food (even if he's not really hungry), he isn't worrying about being eaten. He likes being out of his cage, but not because of any discomfort. Ask Steve. He took his snake to the vet in his coat hood. They usually have a reason to come out, like you say, but they do need exercise, and they do explore. He isn't climbing that tree looking for pinkies. And he isn't climbing up your arm worrying about being eaten. I think keeping a little snake in a little tank is okay, but I think keeping him in a big tank is better. If you have the choice, for the snakes sake, get the bigger. But if it's a temporary quarantine or other reason, he'll be fine in a small tank. Just my opinion.

[infernalis]

By definition anger and fear are emotions. reptiles clearly display both.