Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16
  1. #1
    Juvenile snake suzoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    169
    Country: United States

    Question Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Hi All. I have a question. I live in Southern Missouri, and my Garter's parents were wild caught here. I am not very familiar with all the different sub-species, and thought I had Eastern Gartersnakes, (Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis). However, I saw a Plains (Thamnophis Radix Radix) that looked like my 2 year old,"Gloria". So my question is, will you please look at my photos and tell me what species you think I have? I have really come to value all of your opinions!! Thanks SO much,
    Suzoo

  2. #2
    Brother Snake GarterGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lancaster,PA
    Posts
    1,351
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Looks like T.r.radix to me. No T.s.sirtalis has the dark spots below the side stripe like your snakes have. That's a very good sign that you've got Plains garters Thamnophis radix radix. Also it looks like the side stripe is up higher on the body.....T.radix has the side stripe on the 3-4th scale, while T.sirtalis has it at the 2-3rd scale. Something else you can check are the number of scales......T.radix has 21 while T.sirtalis has 19. For my money, from the pics you've got up.......I'd say T.radix and considering the area they came from I'd say T.r.radix and not T.r.haydeni (which some people don't even consider a real subspecies anyways).
    Roy
    0.1 T.s.pallidulus

  3. #3
    Old and wise snake abcat1993's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    874
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    I thought butler's garters had them on the 3-4th scales? I'm assuming that they both have them on the 3-4th scales.
    0.1 Jack Russell Terrier
    1.0 T. sirtalis

  4. #4
    Forum Moderator Stefan-A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southern Finland
    Posts
    12,389
    Country: Finland

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Quote Originally Posted by abcat1993 View Post
    I thought butler's garters had them on the 3-4th scales? I'm assuming that they both have them on the 3-4th scales.
    Butler's has, quote, "lateral stripe involving rows 2, 3, and the lower edge of 4 (at least anteriorly)"

    I think only radix and the ribbon snakes have a row 3 and 4 stripe, but of course I could be wrong.

  5. #5
    Juvenile snake suzoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    169
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Quote Originally Posted by GarterGuy View Post
    Looks like T.r.radix to me. No T.s.sirtalis has the dark spots below the side stripe like your snakes have. That's a very good sign that you've got Plains garters Thamnophis radix radix. Also it looks like the side stripe is up higher on the body.....T.radix has the side stripe on the 3-4th scale, while T.sirtalis has it at the 2-3rd scale. Something else you can check are the number of scales......T.radix has 21 while T.sirtalis has 19. For my money, from the pics you've got up.......I'd say T.radix and considering the area they came from I'd say T.r.radix and not T.r.haydeni (which some people don't even consider a real subspecies anyways).
    Thank you all! But when you say check the number of scales, where am I counting? Circumference? Length? I'm a noobie. I've worked for Vet's and caught and raised snakes for years but not professionally. Or to the extent that I'm wanting to now!

  6. #6
    Forum Moderator Stefan-A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Southern Finland
    Posts
    12,389
    Country: Finland

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Quote Originally Posted by suzoo View Post
    Thank you all! But when you say check the number of scales, where am I counting? Circumference? Length? I'm a noobie. I've worked for Vet's and caught and raised snakes for years but not professionally. Or to the extent that I'm wanting to now!
    Start at the big ventral scales and call them scale row 0. Then move up the side at a 45 degree angle. Count anywhere that isn't too close to the head or behind the cloaca.



    Edit: I should be a bit more observant, he meant counting the dorsal scale rows (circumference).
    Last edited by Stefan-A; 01-23-2007 at 11:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Brother Snake GarterGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Lancaster,PA
    Posts
    1,351
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Hey, cool pic for scale counting! Yeh, you count up like this and when you get to the dorsum of the snake, it'll be the same down the other side. So if you count up 11...that means that's 10 scales on either side, with one on top.....total of 21, which it should be for you T.radix.
    Roy
    0.1 T.s.pallidulus

  8. #8
    Juvenile snake suzoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    169
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Thank you! Thank you!! I will now go count the scales of my snakes! Better than counting sheep, as that has never worked for me, and it's way past my bedtime. lol

  9. #9
    Juvenile snake suzoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    169
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Well, Thank you all VERY much!!! Gloria was a little cranky as she's fixing to shed, but Gerdie(the one as my Avatar) held perfectly still, and the count is 21. You were all right as I knew you would be My snakes are T.Radix!
    Again, thanks, Suzoo

  10. #10
    Former Moderator Cazador's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Alaska, USA
    Posts
    1,608
    Country: United States

    Re: Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

    Two more cents to spend as you choose... Rossman et al. recommend counting the dorsal scales beginning with the 10th one in front of (anterior to) the vent since the number of dorsal scales can vary within a single subspecies and even on the same individual, between the vent and the neck.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Pictures of my T. s. sirtalis...
    By Thamnophis in forum General Talk
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-04-2006, 11:51 AM
  2. thamnophis sumichrasti?
    By Faunaofthenorth in forum General Talk
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-04-2006, 01:18 AM
  3. Hello fellow thamnophis fans.
    By Brian in forum Welcome Lounge
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-27-2006, 11:15 AM
  4. Thamnophis.com: Good luck !!
    By JChlebowy in forum Site Feedback, Suggestions & Questions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-14-2006, 06:48 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-03-2006, 01:43 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •