Wild Garter -- Care Suggestions [Archive]

gwynhwyfar

11-30-2007, 07:29 PM

Hi, all!

I recently 'came into' a garter ... she came into the building to get out of the cold and by the time she was discovered, it was too late to put her back out so that she could hibernate like a sensible critter. In order to save her from the screaming non-snake-people around, I brought her home and set up my tank (which has been uninhabited for awhile).

She seems to be settling in nicely -- she took some earthworms from me during a few days that were warm enough that I could dig a few up from the garden. She has also expressed an enthusiastic love for fish. I know that a diet of all fish isn't healthy for her, and now that the ground is frozen, I won't be able to dig up worms.

I have a series of questions:

1) Are worms from a bait shop likely to be safe for her, assuming that I do just get plain nightcrawlers and not any of the red varieties? There are no local pet shops that stock worms as a food source for snakes, unfortunately. Just crickets, frozen mice of various sizes, and feeder fish.

2) My ultimate goal is to release her in the spring -- is it likely that she'll be too 'tame' after several months of handling (since I DO move her to feed her -- I have her bedded in aspen which she adores burrowing in) and regular feeding?

3) Since she has NO interest in even scented pinkies, is it likely to harm her to not eat mice during the few months that I'll be keeping her?

Additional information that may or may not make any difference: She (or he ... I haven't gotten that up-close-and-personal with her) is fairly young -- she's about 10" long or so. She has the markings on her face of a garter and given her fondness for earthworms, I feel pretty secure in my belief that she's a garter and not a ribbon. She seems to be healthy -- her scales are bright and shiny, she's active, and she plays in the water every time I change it almost as soon as my hand has vacated the tank and left her 'alone' with the water dish.

adamanteus

11-30-2007, 07:43 PM

Hi Jennifer, and welcome to the forum:). It seems you already pretty 'clued up' on what's going on with this snake. I would suggest, if possible, that you brumate her artificially in your home. There are threads here all about brumation (just type it into the search box). Failing that, you could simply keep her alert through the winter, feeding her, as you are, on a combination of worms (not 'Red Wrigglers') and fish (trout strips are a good and safe option). Good luck, please feel free to ask any further questions you may have.

EdgyExoticReptiles

11-30-2007, 07:47 PM

releasing back into the wild might be a bad idea pluss it will probaly grow on you so by the ttime spring comes u wont want to get rid of it

Odie

11-30-2007, 08:02 PM

Hi, from Oregon, Jennifer :)

Stefan-A

11-30-2007, 08:34 PM

Welcome aboard, Jennifer. :)

Cazador

11-30-2007, 10:46 PM

Hi Jennifer and welcome to the forum.

Fish, in general, aren't bad for snakes at all, but certain species can be harmful. Have a look at this article for more details (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,). The bottom line is that your snake will be just fine without eating pinkies.

A 10" garter is not more than several months old, so this is its first winter. It's common practice for people keeping snakes NOT to brumate newborns, even though it would happen naturally in the wild. Your snake will grow faster if you keep feeding it throughout the winter. If you decide to brumate it, its stress level will likely remain lower, making it a better candidate for release in the spring. If you don't, you increase the likelihood of causing at least temporary stress, which depresses the immune system and may make your snake more vulnerable to any pathogens that it may currently be carrying. Therefore, releasing it in the spring (without brumation) potentially allows pathogens to multiply, turning your snake into a "Typhoid Mary" by spreading pathogens to every other snake it comes in contact with.

Some states have laws against releasing captive reptiles, but for the most part, it's a personal decision that you'll ultimately have to make. If you decide to keep the snake active, just clean its cage regularly with 10% bleach, and enjoy your snake. You'll find a lot of good advise on this forum, and I hope you become a regular contributor. Speaking of which, here's another great link (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/site-feedback-suggestions-questions/1008-guide-posting-pictures.html) that'll help us to determine what species you have ;). Kind regards,

Rick

anji1971

12-01-2007, 08:20 AM

Hello and welcome to the forum! Sounds like a real cute little snake you've got-- are you sure you'll want to let it go??:)

gwynhwyfar

12-01-2007, 10:17 AM

Thank you for the welcomes and the advice! I hadn't really thought about trying to brumate her -- with the other snakes that I've had, it's never been an issue since I wasn't doing any breeding and they were pets. Since she's currently very enthusiastic about eating, I'm thinking that I'll keep feeding her and see if she goes off her food as it gets cooler outside (if not all that much inside).

Hello and welcome to the forum! Sounds like a real cute little snake you've got-- are you sure you'll want to let it go??:)

Really, no. :D I want to believe that I'll release her back to the wild, but ... she is a total cutie-pie and adorable and fascinating to watch. I have her in aspen and she is a burrowing queen. Sometimes, all I can see of her is her little head sticking out. And sometimes, it's just the end of a tail. I love watching her play in the water, too.

I'm going to see if she's feeling photogenic and see if I can get some pictures of her. I'm fairly certain that she's an Eastern Garter, just as that's the most likely candidate given my location. If she's feeling shy, I might only get a picture of the tip of a nose sticking out of the aspen chips, though!

Elliot

12-01-2007, 11:11 AM

What ever you decide to do with it, good luck, and welcome to the forum!:)

enigma200316

12-01-2007, 11:16 AM

Welcome to the forum..............:)

Tori

12-01-2007, 11:17 AM

Hi Jennifer and welcome to the forum. I have to admit I am in shock here....not one person so far has insisted on photos of your "little one"! Maybe the addicts are recovering...but I'm not. So,...any photos of the baby??????

Tori

Sid

12-01-2007, 05:54 PM

HI Jennifer and welcome to the forum. Look forward to seeing some photos of your Garter.

Lori P

12-01-2007, 06:03 PM

Welcome Jennifer, hope you enjoy the forum!

stonyloam

12-01-2007, 06:37 PM

Not knowing any better I would guess that releasing a healthy wild garter back into the wild would not be a problem. I kept a large female eastern all summer, and she became very “friendly”. She would come to me and crawl onto my hand whenever I would open the viv, and would eat from my hand, no problem. She even let me handle her any time and I never got musked, not even once. I releaser her back into the yard where I found her after she had her babies. About two days later she was out sunning and I thought I would see if she how she would react to me. As soon as I got close, she was gone, just as if I had never kept her. What is my point? I’m not really sure that you can “tame” a snake, at least not like a dog or a cat (maybe not a cat:D) or horse or even a pig. I think they react on instinct making a return to the natural state much easier. Anyway she was probably just looking for an escape rout when she crawled up on my hand. It’s 20F out tonight and snowing, hope she is snug in a hole under the pool heater or the sunroom floor:).
Sometimes I get a little melancholy when winter arrives.:(

adamanteus

12-01-2007, 07:01 PM

Sometimes I get a little melancholy when winter arrives.:(

Terry, I think we all feel that! Chin up, once Christmas is over, Spring is just around the corner!:D

Odie

12-02-2007, 08:11 AM

Not knowing any better I would guess that releasing a healthy wild garter back into the wild would not be a problem. I kept a large female eastern all summer, and she became very “friendly”. She would come to me and crawl onto my hand whenever I would open the viv, and would eat from my hand, no problem. She even let me handle her any time and I never got musked, not even once. I releaser her back into the yard where I found her after she had her babies. About two days later she was out sunning and I thought I would see if she how she would react to me. As soon as I got close, she was gone, just as if I had never kept her. What is my point? I’m not really sure that you can “tame” a snake, at least not like a dog or a cat (maybe not a cat:D) or horse or even a pig. I think they react on instinct making a return to the natural state much easier.

They are like Cool hand Luke. Loose but willing to put-up with the man(human) but wait for that opening and it's gone :(

gwynhwyfar

12-02-2007, 07:16 PM

*head-desks*

Well, I got a couple pictures, but I must say that Miss Snakey Snake is not entirely cooperative.

I did decide, perhaps with not entire accuracy, that it is a she -- her tail is remarkably short when compared with the rest of her body length. Since I don't really know any other way to tell, beyond being WAY too personal for the length of our acquaintenceship, it's just going to have to remain a guess. :)

So ... here she is behind the 'bars' of the cube shelves in my bedroom, through the side of the cage, and not being the most cooperative creature. Oh, yes. And not entirely in focus because the poor camera is confused by the plastic reflections.

Peek-a-boo ... oh. Wait. You can see me! Eek!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/snakie_002.jpg

Now if you turn your head to the side, you can see that I'm -this far- into the shavings. And not coming out while she has the camera, either. Ha!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/snakie_003.jpg

drache

12-04-2007, 05:44 AM

hi Jennifer
nice to meet you and your new pretty snake

gwynhwyfar

12-10-2007, 04:45 PM

More questions!

1) How often does a garter poop? I was given the girl-snake just before Thanksgiving vacation (November 20). She hadn't eaten at all for the biology department in a week's time. She's been chowing down twice a week on worms and rosy reds for me and so far, I've only found one mass of poop. Is this normal or a cause for concern? She's otherwise acting as normal as she ever has.

2) Because I move her twice a week to feed her, I have been handling her a little bit. Lately, I've noticed that she seems to want to 'hang out' on my hands when I'm transferring her. I suspect that she's just after the warmth, but she seems completely calm and she's never musked me or made any attempt to bite me. Given the probability that I'm going to keep her in the spring (I spoke with the local park rangers and they strongly suggest that you don't release them even if they were wild in the first place), what's the best way to encourage this calmness so that she gets more used to the handling?

3) I feed her largely rosy reds because they're convenient at this time of the year -- no more earthworms to be found. :( I tried a little fish when we had it the other night, but she was completely unconvinced that it was food since it wasn't moving under its own power. I'm hoping that I can do something about that little quirk, but I suspect that it comes from the fact that she's from the wild and they don't exactly have seafood deliveries out there. :D If I'm feeding her ~8 twice a week (so 16 a week), does that sound about right? Am I under/over-feeding her? She 'fishes' those out and eats them in ~30 minutes, and she doesn't seem to be looking for more afterward.

I'm pretty excited that she's never musked me or anything. She did musk once in her cage when something fell and thwacked against the side, but since I also jumped out of my skin, I can understand that. Am I correct in assuming that it's a good sign that she hasn't done so?

She's a pleasure -- very calming to watch and not really any trouble at all. The cats are also fascinated with watching her (her tank is cat-safe, yes, but that doesn't stop them from watching 'Snake-TV'.

Stefan-A

12-10-2007, 04:59 PM

1. My garters usually poop within 2-4 days after eating, depending on what they have been eating. Worms go straight through them, mice take a bit longer, fish are somewhere in between.

If she's acting normal, then there's little reason to be concerned. My guess is that the rest of the poo is just getting lost in the substrate.

2. Try to avoid upsetting her. :D That's the best advice I can come up with. That, and continued exposure.

3. About 15-20% of her bodyweight per week should be fine. :)

EdgyExoticReptiles

12-10-2007, 06:20 PM

i fed my babies 5-10 (as many as they would eat) rosies twice a week they would usually only eat around 8 or 9

drache

12-12-2007, 08:00 AM

if you want to get ther to take f/t fish eventually, you could try tossing some minnow sized pieces into the bowl with her minnows
once she takes those, you can change the ratio
that's how I got my "won't eat anything dead" concinnus to take pinkies
this past week for the first time she took the pinkies even though the two minnows in her bowl were also f/t

gwynhwyfar

12-18-2007, 07:55 PM

Garter snakes look really alien with the cloudy blue eyes.

And she's in a -really- rotten mood.

About how long after her eyes turn blue can I expect that she'll shed? Or maybe I should ask how long before her eyes clear and then she sheds?

What is best for her to have to rub on to help with the shed? She has a rock and a stick in there.

I would like my sweet little snake back, though I can understand why she's so jumpy, considering what color her eyes turned. She looks creepy and alien.

EdgyExoticReptiles

12-18-2007, 09:19 PM

try to leave her alone when shes in shed and in a couple days her eyes will clear then its usually 1-3 days after that when she sheds, make sure the humidity is not to low, a rock and a stick are good just something ruff or sharp is fine, make sure if you take these things from outside to boil them in water to rid of parasites and bugs

Garter snakes look really alien with the cloudy blue eyes.

And she's in a -really- rotten mood.

About how long after her eyes turn blue can I expect that she'll shed? Or maybe I should ask how long before her eyes clear and then she sheds?

What is best for her to have to rub on to help with the shed? She has a rock and a stick in there.

I would like my sweet little snake back, though I can understand why she's so jumpy, considering what color her eyes turned. She looks creepy and alien.

drache

12-19-2007, 07:42 AM

the only thing you could add to give her all shedding conveniences, is a damp hide, if she doesn't have one
I make mine out of appropriately sized food storage containers with damp moss inside and a hole cut in the lid
some of my snakes totally ignore them, but most love them, particularly when in shed

gwynhwyfar

12-19-2007, 05:19 PM

I haven't been poking at her, but whenever I take the lid off to the cage, she comes lunging up out of the substrate and zips around in circles like a crazy creature. Since I change the water daily, that means that I've been treated to a daily vision of her speeding around and around the enclosure while looking like an alien critter. The blue eyes are creepy!

My bedroom itself is fairly humid (I run a humidifier all winter because of health issues).

Her rock and stick came from outside and were boiled before I put them into the tank. No ickies!

try to leave her alone when shes in shed and in a couple days her eyes will clear then its usually 1-3 days after that when she sheds, make sure the humidity is not to low, a rock and a stick are good just something ruff or sharp is fine, make sure if you take these things from outside to boil them in water to rid of parasites and bugs

gwynhwyfar

12-19-2007, 05:20 PM

Ooo! That's a good idea for a hide! I think that she'll love it, even when she isn't in shed. Probably not more than burrowing in the substrate, but still ... (She makes me wonder if garter snakes are all so fond of burrowing or if it's just her!) Thank you. :)

the only thing you could add to give her all shedding conveniences, is a damp hide, if she doesn't have one
I make mine out of appropriately sized food storage containers with damp moss inside and a hole cut in the lid
some of my snakes totally ignore them, but most love them, particularly when in shed

Lori P

12-19-2007, 05:33 PM

I think they all love to burrow, and it's SO cute! :)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Miriam_peeking_resize.jpg

tikichick

12-19-2007, 05:43 PM

My babies burrow like there's no tomorrow! Cute pic!!!!

gwynhwyfar

12-30-2007, 06:30 PM

Yay! She shed and is in a much better mood now. I gave the shed skin to my god-son as part of his Christmas gift and he's totally thrilled (he's 8).

So now I have another question ... when they call worms 'dilly,' what do they mean? I want to alternate her food between fish and worms, since I know that even rosy reds have issues, but the smallest worms the bait shop has that aren't red wrigglers are called 'dilly worms.' They said that they're just small nightcrawlers. Are they safe for her? The nightcrawlers they have are HUGE and only come in a 2-dozen pack, which would take her ages to eat, since each of the worms is close to half her length.

Thanks!

adamanteus

12-30-2007, 06:33 PM

Jennifer, I've never heard of 'dilly' worms... perhaps our other US members can help you with that one...... but how about pinkies as a dietary option?

gwynhwyfar

12-30-2007, 06:49 PM

Jennifer, I've never heard of 'dilly' worms... perhaps our other US members can help you with that one...... but how about pinkies as a dietary option?

I'm honestly not sure that she can eat one yet so I haven't tried. The pinkies that the local store has frozen are larger than the largest of the rosey reds that she's eaten and those look close to too large for her while she's downing them. I do want to get her onto mice but I don't know if she's large enough for that. How can you tell?

tikichick

12-31-2007, 12:24 AM

Dilly or dillie worm is a bizarre little term for nightcrawlers. Since that bait shop says they're nightcrawlers and aren't red wigglers, those should be fine. I would recommend asking any new bait shops you go to to clarify what their dillys are... the word could be used to describe any worm, like any soft paper product for nose blowing is called "kleenex" lol.

Lori P

12-31-2007, 04:12 PM

I've also never heard of dilly worms, so maybe ask a couple other bait stores for clarification... also, you could shop the pinkies into smaller pieces for her. :-)

gwynhwyfar

03-01-2008, 08:55 PM

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead with an update and a new set of questions! :)

Snakey-snake seems to be doing quite well. She likes to hang out in her substrate, occasionally takes a little swim around the water bowl, lies on the rock and branch I gave her, and generally appears content. She's shed twice since I brought her home in November and has grown a -lot- since then.

My current excitement is that I finally convinced her that her food doesn't have to be alive when she starts to swallow it, so I want to switch her over from the fish of dubious safety to something that I know doesn't have thiamianese in it. I have the list of safe/unsafe fish but I'm wondering if there are any favorites of garters?

Also, can I buy it, cut it up into Snakey sized pieces, and freeze it?

My ultimate goal is to get her onto mice, but there are no stores around here that carry live feeder mice and I know that with the lack of scent in frozen, it's going to be a challenge to get her onto them. I'm just exited that we've moved to 'it doesn't have to be swimming around in the water.'

Outside of feeding, she's a sweetie. She isn't overly fond of being handled, but from time to time, she actually seems to enjoy hanging out with me. She'll curl up around my fingers like some weird kind of jewelry (I know that it's all about my body heat) or she actually crawls up into my sleeve. Which is a bit unnerving, but still kind of sweet.

Yep, I am attached to the little slither. Even if I were allowed to release her, I don't think I'd be doing so. *grins wryly*

*ETA -- For both of the sheds, they weren't clean, but I filled a bowl with warm water and she sat draped over my hands and largely in the water ... I was able to gently get the unshed portions off, including the whole tail. She's remarkably patient about the process!

Stefan-A

03-01-2008, 09:18 PM

Good to hear that she's doing well. :)

anji1971

03-01-2008, 09:25 PM

Sounds good!! I didn't think you'd want to release her once she'd hung around for a bit!!;)

ssssnakeluvr

03-01-2008, 10:20 PM

rainbow trowut are good for them, and a natural prey item in the wild.

EdgyExoticReptiles

03-02-2008, 12:30 AM

salmons good too

adamanteus

03-02-2008, 02:26 AM

Glad to hear that she's settling in so well, Jennifer.:) Trout is certainly a good, safe, cheap, readily available option, and it can be cut into suitable sized pieces and frozen. Once she's accepting trout pieces it will be easier to convince her to accept other food items, such as frozen/thawed pink mice. Trout is a very strong smelling fish, so the scent transfers well onto other things (especially fingers!)

Welcome back, after your short involuntary absence!!!!:o

gwynhwyfar

03-02-2008, 07:06 AM

*makes a note not to handle the trout with my fingers, not wanting a snake attached to said fingers* She's bitten me once (I startled her when she was hiding under the bedding and in shed the first time, so I consider that a justifiable attack on her part) and while it didn't exactly hurt (I have parrots, so pain from bites is definitely relative) that doesn't mean I want to do it again.

It's time for a feeding so I'll look for trout/salmon while I'm out and see what I can come up with. Certainly in the spring/summer, trout is in abundance here. Is perch a safe fish for them? When we fish over the summer, we end up with more white perch than any sane person needs, and if they're safe, I can piece them up and freeze them for her even after we hit the 'okay, I don't personally want more perch than that to eat' stage. I doubt that she's going to particularly care about freezer-burn in her fish, will she?

At this point, I'd be very concerned about releasing her, because she doesn't doesn't have a lot of real fear of me.

And thank you for the welcome back. :)

Glad to hear that she's settling in so well, Jennifer.:) Trout is certainly a good, safe, cheap, readily available option, and it can be cut into suitable sized pieces and frozen. Once she's accepting trout pieces it will be easier to convince her to accept other food items, such as frozen/thawed pink mice. Trout is a very strong smelling fish, so the scent transfers well onto other things (especially fingers!)

Welcome back, after your short involuntary absence!!!!:o

Lori P

03-02-2008, 07:17 AM

Hi Jennifer, I'm so glad to hear that she's doing so well for you! You'll have to keep us updated as you progress with her. :-)

I found that my guys got less interested in the frozen salmon as it aged in the freezer and got some freezer burn... I think it got too stale.

anji1971

03-02-2008, 11:29 AM

Deejay didn't go for the old freezer-burnt salmon as much either.
Fortunately by the time it got to that point we were ready for a new batch anyway. This time I wrapped in in a couple sheets of foil before putting it in a freezer bag; hopefully this will keep it all fresh for the whole time I'm using it!

gwynhwyfar

03-02-2008, 06:15 PM

She's so confused ... she's in her feeding tank and she knows the routine -- she keeps going to the lid where the pieces of cut up salmon are and nosing at it like she's trying to get through it (since she gets into the water dish with the living fish). And then I get a look like 'what's going on here??'

I partially covered the cage so that she had some privacy but I could still monitor her, but I feel bad for the poor confused Snakey.

I'm also stressing that the pieces are too big/too small/otherwise defective, but the biggest isn't any thicker than the largest of the minnows that she's eaten, so I think I'm just having mommy issues. *grins wryly*

adamanteus

03-02-2008, 06:30 PM

Sounds like 'Mom issues' to me, Jennifer. Be patient, she'll soon get the idea!

gwynhwyfar

03-02-2008, 07:36 PM

Sounds like 'Mom issues' to me, Jennifer. Be patient, she'll soon get the idea!

If she isn't eating the fish pieces, how long can I safely leave them in her cage in the hopes that she gets the idea? I tried to feed her a piece with the tongs, but she's so irritated and stressed, that she was striking at the tongs, so I stopped.

Snake lover 3-25

03-08-2008, 08:27 AM

hi try rubbing the fish on the mouse and i would recomend hybernation, especialy if you are going to release her, if it still doesnt eat the mouse go to a pet store and buy reptivite... it keeps them healthy even with the worst diets. Good Luck!!!

GartersRock

03-12-2008, 02:02 PM

You might try pinkies. I have 4 wild caught checkered garters that instantly took to frozen thawed pinkies. =) As well as some wild caught tx rat snakes that took to frozen thawed mice.

Snake lover 3-25

03-16-2008, 07:17 PM

that's what mine did too but it may have been because she was pregnant when i caught her...
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/snake_006.jpg
Gosh i love that pic of them...

gwynhwyfar

03-25-2008, 04:59 AM

That is an awesome picture. Baby snakes are so adorable -- though now I understand why all my attempts as a child to catch baby garters failed. I wasn't looking for something that tiny!!

Snakey just had her fourth shed since I acquired her in November. She's put on about 8" or so and seems to be doing well. I've had to help her with the last inch or so of her tail to get all the shed skin off and she doesn't exactly like the help, but I can live with being musked to save her tail.

She's being stubborn about the fish -- I'm going to try a frozen mouse (well, thawed, when I give it to her!) along with a couple out-of-water rosy reds to see what happens.

I don't think I'll be releasing her. I kinda got attached. Whoops. *giggles*

Zephyr

03-25-2008, 12:33 PM