Quick Question

[abcat1993]

What would happen if you breed a T. Sirtalis infernalis and a sirtalis sirtalis? Would it be half red sided and half normal? Can they be het for infernalis? I was just wondering because I'm about to attempt to reserve one.

[KITKAT]

What would happen if you breed a T. Sirtalis infernalis and a sirtalis sirtalis? Would it be half red sided and half normal? Can they be het for infernalis? I was just wondering because I'm about to attempt to reserve one.

I can't answer that question, but...

The answer is one of two things...

Either you will get an intergrade... meaning the snakes will have some characteristics of each subspecies...

Or you will get hets.

Since infernalis is a subspecies and not a morph, one should theoretically get intergrades... but I see a possibility for either result.

[abcat1993]

So if I wanted to sell the offspring I should probably go with another eastern?

[sschind]

One thing for sure you would not get hets. The terms Heterozygous and homozygous refer to specific genetic traits (color, pattern etc.) and not to all the genetic traits that are used to determine species, or in this case subspecies.

I believe that the most accepted classification for what you are proposing would be an intergrade, which is, for the most part, accepted as meaning a pairing of two different subspecies. Although I have heard some people claiming that the term intergrade should be reserved for subspecies whose natural distribution would overlap allowing potential breeding between sub- species in the wild. I can't recall what term they were suggesting be used for a pairing of different subspecies whose natural ranges do not overlap.

Most people reserve the term Hybrid for a cross between 2 separate species. (T. sirtalis and T. radix for example) or between 2 separate genus. (Thamnophis and Nerodia) for example. Some people make further distinctions such as Interspecific (between species) hybridization in the case of the former, and intergeneric (between genera) hybridization in the case of the latter.

As for what you should attempt to breed your T.s.sirtalis with, only you can decide that. Personally, I don't like hybrids at all, and I only feel a little less opposed to intergrades and I would only be inclined to be in favor of them in cases of natural (in the wild) intergradation. Other people don't have a problem with intergrades or hybrids. The main concern, whatever you decide is that you make sure that anyone who buys your babies knows exactly what they are. If they are intergrades between T.s.infernalis and T.s.sirtalis you have to make sure that the buyers know this. The problem, and this is where most of the opposition to hybridization and intergradation comes from, is that you might make sure that your buyers know what the true genetics of your snake is but you can never be sure what that person might do. If they are not serious about snakes they may decide to get rid of it in a few years and they may not be as forthcoming about what the snake actually is. The result is the potential for breeding an impure subspecies without knowing it.

[Cazador]

Like Steve says, they wouldn't be "het" for infernalis. Their appearance would depend upon which individual traits are dominant and whether they're completely dominant or incompletely dominant. I couldn't predict how they would look.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

If you want to think of it as hybridization, and that's up to you, then in this particular case it would be intraspecific hybridization.

[Cazador]

Hybridization has a specific definition, and Steve hit the nail on the head with it. Since T. sirtalis infernalisand T. sirtalis sirtalis are the same species but different subspecies, a cross would produce intergrades. Conceptually, but not technically, you're correct Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

Isn't the term intergrade intended to be used specifically to describe naturally and frequently occurring hybrids in areas where one subspecies gradually transitions into another?

ps. hybrid:
1 : an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera

[Cazador]

Isn't the term intergrade intended to be used specifically to describe naturally and frequently occurring hybrids in areas where one subspecies gradually transitions into another?

ps. hybrid:
1 : an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera

A "zone of hybridization" would fit the definition that you mentioned above, but a "zone of intergradation" would apply to the area in the wild where different subspecies interbreed.

Not sure where you got the definition of hybrid, but it sounds like a colloquialism, rather than a biological definition.

[Stefan-A]

I got it from Merriam-Webster. Even if it isn't a biological definition, it still describes the same concept.