I have fed my Garter/Ribbon Goldfish for 13 years. Is Thiaminase a problem?

[tspuckler]

I think what Shannon is saying is that the enzyme thiaminase effectively destroys vitamin B1. So you can add B1, but it's pretty much a waste of time to do so if the fish you are feeding the snake contains thaiminase.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but thiaminase can be denatured by heating the fish to 80 degrees C in water for 5 minutes.

Tim

[DrKate]

I think what Shannon is saying is that the enzyme thiaminase effectively destroys vitamin B1. So you can add B1, but it's pretty much a waste of time to do so if the fish you are feeding the snake contains thaiminase.

This is true only to a point. Injecting (frozen/thawed) sub-par feeder fish with liquid multi-B-vitamin before feeding is actually a common thing to do in zoos and other aquaculture situations, according to a vet acquaintance of mine. (Remember, the thiaminase issue affects all piscivorous species including marine mammals, birds, and other fish, not just our snakes.)

You gotta think back to high school biology. A single enzyme molecule can only work so fast. So you can effectively overwhelm all the thiaminase in a fish by flooding the fish with more B1 than the thiaminase can destroy between the time of the injection and when the enzyme itself is broken down in the gut of the predator. If you put in enough, right before feeding, then there's plenty left for the predator to absorb.

The trick is knowing how much is enough. If you add too little, the fish will still be deficient in thiamine (though less so than without the supplement). If you add too much, the B vitamins can themselves be dangerous. Ideally, I'd suggest that anyone who's interested in taking this route should consult an exotics vet who's interested in nutrition, to establish a safe level of B-vitamin supplement. It's probably easier for most folks to just avoid the thiaminase-containing fish, though.

[Frédérick]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but thiaminase can be denatured by heating the fish to 80 degrees C in water for 5 minutes.

Tim

That's very interesting, if someone was in a bad situation with feeder availability for some time, this should be regarded, as well as B1 supplementation (say moderate amounts but frequent, over a period of months?) i guess this way the thiaminase present in the garter would eventually ''fade out'', which can take a good while and the snake would have some B1 to absorb over time, given the heating trick does a very good job at denaturing the enzyme in the subsequent feeders...food for thought!

[Jimyd]

Hey again, was busy with college and stuff and the thread took awhile to get approved.

I'll try to get some pics when I can.

Best bet for me would be to feed him pinky mice since there is not really any local petstores I know of that sell un-thiaminase fish. Petco and Petsmart are really my only options.

Although the snake(don't know if male/female) does not really go for things already dead.

@Previouscoments: Yeah Petstore employees really don't know anything, unless it is about a dog or a cat.

But my original question still stands, would I start to see any thiaminase related health developments after all these years. BTW this snake was an addition to two wild caught alligator lizards with one caught up by stampede lake and the caught by my dad near a water treatment plant for the county way back when,[they lasted for 7-10(i'll have to find my old photo pics that have the exact dates on them) years] which has outlasted both of them.

How long should I expect one of these snakes to live for assuming no problems arise?

Also when I caught the snake it was already about 1 foot long exactly and my lizards were already between 2-3 years old at the time when snake was added(thats adding in estimated time based on their size from approximate wild birth, lizards were probably one years each when I put them in a tank with the second one caught about half a year older than the first).

Sorry for the little tangent there, but maybe this snake somehow has a higher tolerance to the thiamine defficiency because of its history of being a wild caught snake?

Would love to hear more of your guys/gals theory on it. I'll try to have pics next time I post. BTW there is no red in the snake, just what i said before. No blues either.

[jitami]

Hi, I'm also in the Sacramento area and you're right, it's nearly impossible to find appropriate live fish for your garter here. However, you should be able to switch it over to either frozen thawed mice or frozen thawed fish rather easily. Petco has both mice and silversides or you could go to the grocery store and get a salmon or trout fillet and slice it into appropriate sized strips. Just put a couple of the live fish that he's used to in a small bowl of water with the dead(frozen thawed) prey item and he's very likely to hit the dead prey item and swallow it. Usually you only need to do this a couple of times and they'll readily accept your prefered food.

Sorry if this has all been mentioned... didn't read through the entire thread again.