People against wild caught Garters

[Didymus20X6]

That's a bit of a red herring, don't you think?

Not really. It demonstrates two points:

1. Because some wild specimens have been caught of certain species under certain conditions without impact to either the populations or the environment, then it shows that, with careful consideration, it can still be done. The exception, of course, being when a particular species is endangered, or of being overly collected.

2. It still holds true that, if it is inherently wrong to collect a wild specimen, then having collected them at all is inherently wrong, which, in turn, makes keeping them, even captive bred, hypocritical at best. In other words, someone has already taken that gamble, and now we're being told we shouldn't gamble at all?

In addition, several other considerations have already been put forward in this thread in which, not only is catching them wild acceptable, but in fact preferable. For example:

1. a scenario, like Millinex's construction site, or even my neighborhood, where the snakes are likely to be killed by other people anyway. If I were to keep a snake, it would be one from my own neighborhood.

2. even a scenario you alluded to, where certain lines of captive-bred snakes are heavily inbred and in need of fresh genes.

3. and yes, even a case where a person can't afford to shell out the bucks for a top of the line thoroughbred snake.

And even relocation isn't always a great option. What if it causes a sudden boom to the population in that area, killing off potential prey, or causing other natural predators to starve? There is just as much risk in releasing a wild-caught snake as in keeping it. And as many of the other members have pointed out, whatever course of action - to catch, to buy, to release - it must be done with the risks carefully weighted.

And yes, there's even risk to buying captive-bred animals, too. Let's not even try to deny that.

[Stefan-A]

Not really. It demonstrates two points:

1. Because some wild specimens have been caught of certain species under certain conditions without impact to either the populations or the environment, then it shows that, with careful consideration, it can still be done. The exception, of course, being when a particular species is endangered, or of being overly collected.

That is a very dangerous assumption to make. There are plenty of examples of the removal wild specimens, either through collecting or killing, having a devastating effect on the populations.

2. It still holds true that, if it is inherently wrong to collect a wild specimen, then having collected them at all is inherently wrong, which, in turn, makes keeping them, even captive bred, hypocritical at best. In other words, someone has already taken that gamble, and now we're being told we shouldn't gamble at all?

I'm not arguing the point that it's inherently wrong, but as a side note, it seemed like that was the argument that the OP was talking about.

In addition, several other considerations have already been put forward in this thread in which, not only is catching them wild acceptable, but in fact preferable. For example:

1. a scenario, like Millinex's construction site, or even my neighborhood, where the snakes are likely to be killed by other people anyway.

Relocation is an option.

2. even a scenario you alluded to, where certain lines of captive-bred snakes are heavily inbred and in need of fresh genes.

Ultimately, few snakes have reached that point and those that have, don't need "fresh genes" specifically from wildcaught specimens. In the case of the SanFran, the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks.

3. and yes, even a case where a person can't afford to shell out the bucks for a top of the line thoroughbred snake.

Nobody's getting a thoroughbred top of the line snake by catching one and there are alternatives to them. Sure, you might get your hands on an exceptionally nice snake that way, but you're not going to find anything comparable to a snake that's been selectively bred for a certain trait.

How would such a person afford to keep an animal, if he couldn't even afford to purchase a captive bred one? It's something we see with cats all the time, the cheaper the animal, the worse it's cared for. I'm not saying it's a rule, it definitely isn't, but it is a trend. A few years ago, I had a run-in on Kingsnake with a person who did explicitly say that he would never take a sick wildcaught snake to a vet, because he'd get away cheaper by just discarding it and catching a new one.

And even relocation isn't always a great option. What if it causes a sudden boom to the population in that area, killing off potential prey, or causing other natural predators to starve?

That's a risk, but compared to breeding and releasing dozens or hundreds at a time, it's a minor risk.

There is just as much risk in releasing a wild-caught snake as in keeping it. And as many of the other members have pointed out, whatever course of action - to catch, to buy, to release - it must be done with the risks carefully weighted.

I agree with the latter statement.

And yes, there's even risk to buying captive-bred animals, too. Let's not even try to deny that.

That depends on the risk you are referring to. I can indeed think of several risks involved with buying captive-bred animals, ranging from diseases to accidental release of the animals, but the risks specifically to the populations their ancestors were collected from, are minimal.

[charles parenteau]

Stephan and didymus you both have very good point and I should read to post again to a better understanding.


Didymus I agree when you say that certain lines of captive bred snake are heavily inbreed and new gene are needed .
That what happen with eastern flame.All came from the same place and over 15 years flame are not what they supposed to be .Poor red or orange ,flame become dull as adult .ect.I want to restore the standard.

Its not for money or glory I think Its selfishness .Its a personal goal its not for the market or for sell.
I obey to the fundamental rules and I think I don't have negative effect on wild population.But someone told me even if im well intentionned I can have negative effect .Its absolutely right.
Every action I made is well calculated .
REstore the flame standard and produce 3 strippes flame are the 2 main reasons why I collect wild snake.I just want to clarify what I'M doing that make me feel better.

[Millinex]

Stefan relocation isn't exactly a viable option in my case. The area is crawling with them and I would probably hurt both the new snake and the population of wherever I relocate it to, not to mention the survival chances for a large female garter is slim compared to some of the smaller/slender snakes who can manage to run/hide.

I actually managed to capture another one from the site today, to rehome to a family and teach them about garters, all parties win.. Except the rattler I had no way to bring home/mother who would kill me.

[Didymus20X6]

You found a rattler, and you're more worried about your mom killing you?

[Millinex]

You found a rattler, and you're more worried about your mom killing you?

I live with her, she is against me keeping one in the house/on the property, or I would have kept it. However in the field I am confident in my ability to handle it, for now I was forced to simply move him off the trail and enjoy him for about 45 minutes, hopefully he is still there when my gf and I head out there in a few mins so we can move him far away from the trail and get some good pictures.

Rattlers aren't as bad as a lot of people claim, and are one of the easiest hots to handle IMO, would have been a great snake to keep though!

[MasSalvaje]

Rattlers aren't as bad as a lot of people claim, and are one of the easiest hots to handle IMO, would have been a great snake to keep though!

Lets worry about the original can of worms before we open a second.

This debate will go on forever, and to be honest I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I have my own oppinion on the matter based on my own experiences, as does everyone else.

Ultimately there is no way to prove that a WC specimen will/will not have a negative impact on a population. There is too much data on both sides to come to any scientificly credible conclusion, so we each need to make up our own minds on the matter and accept others views.

To the original poster; Make up your own mind on the matter. You are the only one that knows for sure if you have the means to properly care for the animal as well as put up with any heat that may come your way for so doing. If you can't give the snake a good home or you can't deal with the opposite view's take on the matter you should certainly let it go.

-Thomas

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This is a reoccurring topic, one that I feel should continue to keep our ethical approaches in check. We may not all agree about the best strategies to keep wild populations wild and healthy, nor can we all come up with perfect reasons to justify our acquisition of wild-caughts. This forum is great, in that we can agree to disagree and remain civil. Yes, there may exist some hypocrisy in some of our excuses. At least we are trying to educate ourselves! For every controversial, well-thought out decision in our acquisitions, remember there are tons of idiots and ruthless small children who never give a thought.

In regards to conservation, I am apt to lean towards Stefan's understanding of potential impacts on populations. Sure relocation beats decapitation or being buried under the dozer, but relocation is very iffy, and does not guarantee the survival of a released animal or members of the existing predator complex residing in the locality of the release. Keeping a W/C for the same reason one might want to relocate the snake is an issue whereby we may never obtain closure... I have seen too many arguments trying to justify keeping W/C's, and my own reasons skirt contradiction, since I too keep W/C's.

My keeping W/C's is for the sole purpose of research. Sure, I enjoy the animals, or I wouldn't be studying them. I also understand that the observations I make and the notes I take will not necessarily give me the true picture of what is going on in the wild. Still, the information collected is valuable. If something new is learned, something that can actually find its way into scientific texts, then I personally feel justified. My interest with local species revolves around genetics and prey selection, and it my belief that this research is very helpful in understanding the local population dynamics of not just garters, but also garter predators and prey. I am also continuously perplexed by garter diversity and the possibility of hybridization in the wild (if indeed we'd like to call it that, or go the whole nine yards in trying to define what a "species" actually is). For all those who keep C/B's, such research might help explain some of the captive genetics. [Please don't confuse this research with C/B projects that try to mix species and create "Frankengarters"!]

For any of you who have watched the 2 "competing" documentaries that try to predict life on earth without the presence of humans (They've been aired the last year on the Science, History and other channels...), you should realize HUMANS are indeed the most detrimental species to the planet; we are the most invasive, intrusive, and yes, apparently we are worse than radiation! Chernobyl has witnessed returns in the counts of healthy red deer populations since people were forced to vacate the area... Okay, I'm going off on a tangent, but the point is - anything we do, whether for selfish reasons or even good-hearted one- will have an impact!

Once again, from a conservation standpoint, BE CAUTIOUS in any wild-collecting or relocating you might do! Amphibian populations are being threatened worldwide. You may have healthy garter populations in your neck of the woods today, but chytrid fungus could be around the corner tomorrow, ready to wipe out up to 80% of any affected ampibian species living there within the first year of its establishment. Oh no! That thought might give someone the impression we should snag a few garters to give the frogs a chance. Please, NO!

I have to state that I believe the world is going to S--T! Mother Earth is in a transitional phase where the S--T has indeed hit the fan, and things ARE going to change! It appears to me that many of the strategies park systems and Fish and Game are attempting may be mute; we're out there trying to save species by intervening [best justified when the problem was a result of human actions!], and in many cases we don't even think about whether or not a particular species is meant to survive. Mother Nature "doesn't care" if a species survives! Evolution after all is a ruthless affair, and the presence of any species is a wonderful novelty.

I work at Redwood National and State Parks. I spend a lot of time on the prairies combatting exotic vegetation. The fire crews also cut and burn firs and oaks to keep the forest from swallowing the prairies. These prairies have existed for about a 1000 years, and were originally maintained (via burning) by Native Americans in the area. In effect, man has been interfering with a natural process. These prairies would not exist without us, but since they have been around for so long, we are now continuing the burns so we can maintain all the animal and plant species that have adapted to living there. If we were to stop the burns, the gopher snakes, racers, mountain garters, the deer and elk, etc, etc might not be as plentiful as they are right now. Since we have have cattle ranchers neighboring the park, their is public fear about introducing wolves or other previously native predators to the park. Thus we may have large herds of elk, but their genetics are weak. The whole natural process has been tweaked to fit our often less-than-educated understanding of it.

So, how does this relate to W/C garters? Well, it's more of a vibe and feeling. The planet is "f----d", and we often don't have a clue as to how damaging our intentions may be, whether selfish or selfless!

So, keep showing your concern. At least WE are by talking about it! We may not find the solution, but hopefully we will attain a better sense of objectivity regarding the controversy.

Rambling again,

Steve