Biologist finds rare garter snakes in California

[jitami]

You have a point, Rhea... but totally unscientifically, I find it hard to believe that 1000 acres of farmland creates more problems than covering that 1000 acres with apartments, tract housing, auto malls, more shopping centers with the exact same stores and restaurants as the one 5 miles down the road... you get the idea... even if it's aestetics only... I'd prefer farm land. No doubt, work still needs to be done with farm owners regarding water use, land erosion, and pestisides, but covering the area in asphalt can't possibly be better???

[GradStudentLeper]

You have a point, Rhea... but totally unscientifically, I find it hard to believe that 1000 acres of farmland creates more problems than covering that 1000 acres with apartments, tract housing, auto malls, more shopping centers with the exact same stores and restaurants as the one 5 miles down the road... you get the idea... even if it's aestetics only... I'd prefer farm land. No doubt, work still needs to be done with farm owners regarding water use, land erosion, and pestisides, but covering the area in asphalt can't possibly be better???

I would like to see a nature conservancy take over... But the farmers are just as bad if not worse. Even if the entire area is paved, the houses dont have agricultural runoff and agrochemicals being blown down wind into the mountains and poisoning waterways there...

[jitami]

I would like to see a nature conservancy take over... But the farmers are just as bad if not worse. Even if the entire area is paved, the houses dont have agricultural runoff and agrochemicals being blown down wind into the mountains and poisoning waterways there...

Are you sure? You're the scientist, I'm not, so you very well could be right, but us lovely suburban Californians wreak all sorts of havoc by sending all sorts of interesting stuff down the storm drains day in and day out... run off from roads, run off from our perfectly manicured lawns, plus things like motor oil, paint, etc. deliberately dumped down storm drains... even the drains with cute little fishies engraved in the concrete. Not to mention the materials used in building all of these homes, roads, and businesses. I would guess (again, just a guess) that we use nearly as much, if not more, water than agriculture does as well? I dunno...

Probably getting too off topic anyway... sorry for venting my frustrations with this lovely state I live in... and it is lovely... hopefully it will continue to be for many years to come... It's hard for me to see hope for our reptiles and amphibs once they're relegated to golf course ponds, shopping center fountains, and the occasional tract housing green belt.

[Stefan-A]

Are you sure? You're the scientist, I'm not, so you very well could be right, but us lovely suburban Californians wreak all sorts of havoc by sending all sorts of interesting stuff down the storm drains day in and day out... run off from roads, run off from our perfectly manicured lawns, plus things like motor oil, paint, etc. deliberately dumped down storm drains... even the drains with cute little fishies engraved in the concrete. Not to mention the materials used in building all of these homes, roads, and businesses. I would guess (again, just a guess) that we use nearly as much, if not more, water than agriculture does as well? I dunno...

Undeniably a problem, but it does pale in comparison to the amounts of various types of pesticides farms use and eutrophication, caused primarily by farms, also has a big impact on amphibians and especially fish.

[FunkyRes]

You have a point, Rhea... but totally unscientifically, I find it hard to believe that 1000 acres of farmland creates more problems than covering that 1000 acres with apartments, tract housing, auto malls, more shopping centers with the exact same stores and restaurants as the one 5 miles down the road... you get the idea... even if it's aestetics only... I'd prefer farm land. No doubt, work still needs to be done with farm owners regarding water use, land erosion, and pestisides, but covering the area in asphalt can't possibly be better???

Let me give an example that gives anecdotal support.
A tract of land in Contra Costa County owned by a Cattle rancher was given to the East Bay Regional Park district in the late 80s. Initially the city/county wanted to buy it to turn it into a landfill, but the son of the rancher who ranched the land wouldn't have it, he wanted it to be available to the public.

Since then, they have found San Joaquin Kit Fox, California Red-legged Frogs, and other rare species living there. Glad it wasn't turned into a dump! It also since that time has become one of the only places in Contra Costa County that has Golden Eagles nesting there.

10 driving miles away from there is where my parents live. A developer bulldozed land and started to build, but now that land is bulldozed, with streets, but empty - and completely useless. What may have lived on that land that now is gone? Sure - it was farmland before, but a lot of the farmland there currently (largely fruit trees, corn, strawberries, grapes) supports a wide variety of wildlife. When they bulldoze it, it supports almost nothing.

[GarterGeek]

Oh don't be too judgemental on the farmers. They're just people and they struggle to make a living too. Worm-eaten food doesn't sell...they can't help that.

[jitami]

When they bulldoze it, it supports almost nothing.

My point exactly. Of course, having any land turned into protected public land is ideal... and yours was an awesome example!... but we still live in a capitalistic society and if I have to chose between farm land and development I'll chose farmers every time.

[GradStudentLeper]

My point exactly. Of course, having any land turned into protected public land is ideal... and yours was an awesome example!... but we still live in a capitalistic society and if I have to chose between farm land and development I'll chose farmers every time.

Why? How do you justify that ethically? Because we live in a capitalistic society? Have you considered that perhaps we shouldnt? Or that, perhaps the needs of humans can be outweighed by the needs of other organisms. Your position would have us Slash and Burn the entire country of Brazil to make room for additional cattle, and the destruction of entire river deltas and all of the life they possess for rice patties.

Moreover, farming takes a LOT of water. Fresh water is very limited, so if we ALWAYS gave into the demands of farmers we would have water shortages more severe than we already have.

Your own state of CA has severe water shortages because the local farmers cant be bothered to conserve water, and they have single handedly destroyed not just the Central valley, but everything down stream and downwind.

If I bulldoze a plot of land, I destroy that plot. If I turn it into farmland, not only do I destroy the vast majority of life there (the above example is poor because animals can migrate to area turned into public land, it did not support that life before, those organisms recolonized it afterward), but I must take water from the surrounding countryside, and when that water leaves my plot of farmland it is polluted, killing or otherwise harming everything up stream. The wind blows the same chemicals elsewhere, and due to Evolution, the pest insects I have pesticides for become resistant to pesticides, including natural compounds native plants use for defense. As a result, I create super-insects that devastate local plants.

[FunkyRes]

Why? How do you justify that ethically? Because we live in a capitalistic society? Have you considered that perhaps we shouldnt? Or that, perhaps the needs of humans can be outweighed by the needs of other organisms.

You'd be amazed at how often species disappear from habitat set aside for them but remain on privately owned property. National Parks really screwed up, for example, by planting sport fish to attract tourists - while many private land owners, including ranches, did not do such things and thus still have native rana species.

Your position would have us Slash and Burn the entire country of Brazil to make room for additional cattle, and the destruction of entire river deltas and all of the life they possess for rice patties.

Nothing was said about completely unregulated farming.

Moreover, farming takes a LOT of water. Fresh water is very limited, so if we ALWAYS gave into the demands of farmers we would have water shortages more severe than we already have.

Your own state of CA has severe water shortages because the local farmers cant be bothered to conserve water, and they have single handedly destroyed not just the Central valley, but everything down stream and downwind.

Much of the water shortage currently going on is artificial, caused by a small minnow in the Delta. Seems they sometimes get killed in the pumps, so they turned the pumps off.

Our politicians are too stupid to figure out the unemployment costs are likely higher than the cost of a captive breeding program to supplement the wild minnow population.

If I bulldoze a plot of land, I destroy that plot. If I turn it into farmland, not only do I destroy the vast majority of life there (the above example is poor because animals can migrate to area turned into public land, it did not support that life before, those organisms recolonized it afterward), but I must take water from the surrounding countryside, and when that water leaves my plot of farmland it is polluted, killing or otherwise harming everything up stream. The wind blows the same chemicals elsewhere, and due to Evolution, the pest insects I have pesticides for become resistant to pesticides, including natural compounds native plants use for defense. As a result, I create super-insects that devastate local plants.

When people starve, you end up with revolution. War does a lot of damage.
I suspect, btw, that you'll find most ecological damage actually comes from lawns and pesticides used to keep lawns green aphids off the roses.

Farmers use science for the application of their fertilizers and pesticides, often they are required to by law but it also is cheaper for them. Use too much and the cost of excess hurts their bottom line, it is worthwhile for them to do frequent soil samples, etc.

Joe Six Pac does not use science, his runoff probably does more damage.

Yes, agriculture has ecological impact. Yes, methods continue to improve reducing that impact. We do need to change the way we farm and go more organic, but keep in mind, the less pesticides used the lower the crop yield, thus more land needs to be turned into farmland to feed the population.

[Stefan-A]

I suspect, btw, that you'll find most ecological damage actually comes from lawns and pesticides used to keep lawns green aphids off the roses.

I can pretty much guarantee that it's not the case. Every square inch of a field gets sprayed with herbicides, fungicides and insecticides, but not even remotely every rose bush and the quantities definitely cannot be compared. Even if the amount was the same per area of land, you'll find that crops cover a far larger area than gardens. It's also a matter of location, paved areas aren't that valuable, but the areas surrounding farms are likely to be.

Farmers use science for the application of their fertilizers and pesticides, often they are required to by law but it also is cheaper for them. Use too much and the cost of excess hurts their bottom line, it is worthwhile for them to do frequent soil samples, etc.

Last year, I took part in a project intended to map threats to groundwater in a heavily farmed area and this is the impression that I got: Farmers tend to use science selectively. We can try to convince them to use the best available methods, but I can tell you that they usually don't listen and they do pretty much as they please and really don't appreciate any advice, even if it would actually benefit them. They can get very defensive and do things the wrong way simply out of spite. They often even brag about it. They care more about getting successful crops, than about saving money on pesticides, so over-use is a risk they're willing to take.